Posted on 02/24/2004 12:46:27 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
Calvinists hold that you can't even believe until you are baptized, which means you for sure will not believe if you are not baptized and therefore will not be saved.
BTW, Matthew (27:44) and Mark (15:32) say that neither one of the thieves believed in Jesus. Luke says one did, 23:39-41, and John makes no mention of the thieves.
"There are any number of doctrines about human persons today which make them anything and everything but images of God; from the meaningless moments of some mythical historical-evolutionary process or material-economic dialectic, to the passive victims of biological, social, economic, psychological, or sexual forces whose tyranny in comparison to the gods which they have allegedly destroyed is incomparably more ruthless and oppressive. And the fact that theologians, even Christian theologians, are there to provide their professional and professorial sanction to the enslaving power of self-contained and self-explained "nature" only adds further insult to this fatal injury."
Thomas Hopko
An isolated individual is a product of sin. We are of necessity "members one of another".
Man alone is not man, just as God alone is not God.
God is not one but communion...."...perfect unity without the suppression of diversity, and perfect multiplicity without the destruction of unity"....As Lossky so beautifully says.
And these are my replies to your question about man's nature.
Ping to above...
That is different from what you originally said =>
One cannot be saved without baptism.
The clergy consensus today, after I asked them to share their wisdom on this matter, was that we do not say that one cannot be saved without baptism.
It not only limits God's choices to a ritual here on earth, but it goes against the concept of perfect (divine) love.
And the final advice given was this - when in doubt about these things, always ask yourself, what choice would be made by a God of Perfect Love?
The rest of Mark's verse says that those who don't believe won't be saved.
The implication is, politically correct or not, that it isn't enough to believe, but to be baptized to be saved. Among the nonbelievers who will not be saved can be both baptized and unbaptized -- but their fate is clearly stated in Mark 16:16.
How would anyone believe in Jesus and not be baptized? Yes, the thief on the cross believed in Jesus, and he wasn't baptized and was saved (and this is only accoridng to Luke!), but let's face it how often does that happen?
Why would someone out of a clear blue say "I believe in Jesus?" Another point is that Mark and Matthew do not say that either one of the thieves believed in Jesus, so Mark's statement in 16:16 is consistent with his version, setting baptism as the necessary step followed by faith in order to be saved.
Show me where it says that one does not have to be baptized and does not have to believe in order to be saved. We can only go by what the Gospels say. Calvinism makes it imperative -- it says that you have to be regenerated through baptism in order to be able to believe; in other words, without baptism you are so completely depraved that you are incapable of believing, and -- the famous Protestant maxim says -- salvation is through faith alone.
This is the same thing as that famous "for many" which the post-Vatican II changed to "for all." The Scripture clearly says Jesus came "for some." This goes hand in hand with the Calvinist position that all will not be saved. If that is the case, there are only two possibilities: either God doesn't want to or God can't because He doesn't won't to. But not everyone will be saved -- God-willing one way or another.
Worth repeating. So lovely and true. 118 posted on 02/29/2004 7:17:29 AM PST by MarMema
I must go you one further, Kosta. God never purposes to "defeat" Human Nature, whether by Will or by Love. God is not seeking the DEFEAT of the Imago Dei ~~ but rather our DEIFICATION.
God purposes to redeem Human Nature. Because Human Nature is Fallen.
"But He loved us, BEFORE we first loved Him."
That's the key point, to the Calvinist.
If God was not lying, then the Race of Man is become, by nature, Spiritually Dead.
And those who are Spiritually Dead... must be Regenerated in order to Believe.
"He loved us, BEFORE we first loved Him."
God never stopped loving us; it is we who stopped loving Him.
MarMema -- I have access, which is good.
If we indeed are worthy of salvation, it will be our spirit at first, before we can heal our body after the Last Judgment.
For you OP, I think it will answer soem of the concepts you may find odd, and for you MarMema it will only reinforce what you already know. Enjoy! Kosta (I wish we had more people like John. It is difficult to imagine he wrote that in the 8th century -- and it's still current and brilliant).
"Worthy of salvation"... again, not criticizing ~~ that's just a thought which is so strange to a Calvinist.
You've never given birth, I take it.
"Worthy of salvation"... again, not criticizing ~~ that's just a thought which is so strange to a Calvinist.
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Eph. 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.
Col. 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.
2 Thess. 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.
2 Thess. 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.
Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Why would an expression used throughout the New Testament seem strange to a Calvinist? (Put down the Institutes and read the Bible--just kidding!)
Hank
You've never given birth, I take it.
What are you saying, that pain is "good," that the worth of the child is determined by how much pain the mother suffered to bring the child into the world? If the child is born without the mother suffering, is it worth any less? Is it really the pain that is the source of the value?
What is this worship of pain?
In A Passion for Pain, Mr. Firehammer eplains:
"It is certainly no surprise that Christians are opposed to anything that relieves suffering in this world, and if Christians had there way, not even the suffering accompanying childbirth would ever be relieved.
"Ronald Bruce Meyer, in 'Religion v. Anesthesia' records, 'The controversy over the use of anesthetics has a sad history of clerical opposition, especially when suggested for women in childbirth. The clerical prohibition issues from the Bible, Genesis 3:16, and from the very mouth of God: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children."'
"The article, The Under-treatment of Pain - Part I, some history records, 'This divine curse [Gen. 3:16] was taken so literally by religious fanatics that in 1591 King James VI of Scotland had burned at the stake a gentlewoman named Euphanie Macalyane who secretly used a remedy to relieve her pangs of childbirth.' An example of Christian 'compassion' and intolerance for anything that relieves the human suffering they worship."
Hank
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.