Posted on 02/05/2004 3:20:50 PM PST by xzins
I do understand the implications of the issues of time, predestination v free will, and how it can be troubling to many. IMHO, the important result is that the seeker love God with all of his understanding – whatever that may be. And we seekers may very well arrive at a different understanding for good cause.
First of all, I assert that it is acceptable to be different on such issues. The twelve disciples were very different personalities and disagreed amongst themselves on certain details (Acts 15). But different as they were, they were all chosen by Christ. He could have chosen twelve like John, or Peter, etc. This should tell us something. Likewise in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, the churches were quite different from one another but all accepted, with commendations and rebukes.
Each of us has our own spiritual “chalkboard” upon which the Word of God is written. The Word, the Truth, is flawless. Our chalkboard, which is the breath of God (Genesis 2:7) is also flawless, but our mind is not. Thus, we need to resolve every issue, with humility, to the very best of our understanding to be able to reason with those who may ask:
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: - I Peter 3:15
In that spirit I’d like to get back to the issue of whether the Scriptures are “anthropomorphic” – and offer the following as indications to support that view. Paul, who had been in but a limited degree of heaven, was forbidden to reveal some of what he heard. And of what he could reveal, he tailored his speech to his audience, to the depth of their ability to understand:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. - I Corinthians 3:1-4
So yes, the Scriptures are inerrant but not complete or as another Freeper once said, the Scriptures reveal God truly but not fully. The Word however is complete, alive, from the beginning and is God. Jesus is the Word made flesh. (John 1). And it is the Word working in our Spirit, which reveals the deep things of God – not our mortal “wisdom”. (I Corinthians 2:9-16) I assert that we must always be aware of the difference and disclose the same so that we do not assert our mortal wisdom as spiritual understanding.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. – Mark 7:7
Eternal: 1a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING.... 4: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS. (Merriam-Webster Online.) Tell me again where you got the notion that "eternal" is in opposition to 'time'?
As far as Scriptural definition, see here. It includes word studies on the Greek and Hebrew words used for time concepts in Scripture.
You don't seem to really understand the concept of "frame of reference." Citing the Bible is still working within our frame of reference, in time.
The Bible only details God's interaction with us. By necessity, it takes place in time, in our frame of reference.
SD
The Bible only details God's interaction with us. By necessity, it takes place in time, in our frame of reference.
And by the very fact that the Bible details God's interaction with us in terms of time, it precludes that we should think otherwise simply on merit of Scripture. And as has been pointed out in the article to which winston referred (and to which you were pinged earlier by myself), the logic of creation implies time in God's creative act, for creation is successive something from nothing (see the article).
Maybe it does for you. For me, the very beginning of Scripture invites us to think about the state God was in before He made creation.
the logic of creation implies time in God's creative act, for creation is successive something from nothing
Again, I do not disagree. If we are speaking of the view from our point of reference.
It is as if we were 2 dimiensional creatures in a 2 dimensional world. God can only appear to us as a circle, even though He is a sphere.
SD
The answer to that question is even in the definition you posted, "TIMELESS"
Now, what can "TIMELESS" mean, except that there is NO time, therefore, the NO negates time, and is therefore in opposition to time existing.
What we may not share is our understanding of the Bible. The Bible is to my view, the inerrant Word of God. To other evangelicals, it is infallible (a lesser standard of accuracy). However, in this instance, under either standard, the Bible's continued recitation of God adopting 'time' as HIS 'frame of reference' is dispositive.
I think I understand at least the general direction of the speculations you are urging. But for the biblical data, we might be able to indulge those speculations (i.e. yours would be as valid as mine; one guess is as good as another). If, however, the Bible constitutes God's self-disclosure of His own nature, thoughts and actions, then speculations contrary to that self-disclosure are invalid.
Thus, my 'problem' is not a lack of understanding of what might constitute a 'frame of reference' but rather whether such a qualifier is sufficient to disregard God's self-disclosure. I hold it is not.
God bless.
So a timeless truth is a truth that exists outside of time, huh? (That was the example used for definition 4 of eternity: "An eternal verity [truth].") See the definition again. "Valid or true at all times." NOT apart from time.
From the beginning, the Bible invites us to think about the state God was in before he created the world with a reference to time. "IN THE BEGINNING, the world was without form, and void."
Again, I do not disagree. If we are speaking of the view from our point of reference. It is as if we were 2 dimiensional creatures in a 2 dimensional world. God can only appear to us as a circle, even though He is a sphere.
And yet we cannot say that he is a sphere because all we are shown is a circle.
Truth is of God, and existed before there was time. Truth is eternal, without time, and some truth exist in this space/time continuum, but will exist when this space/time continuum ceases.
Sigh. We might as well say that God is a circle, He could not be a sphere, cause He has revealed Himself to us, in our 2 dimensinal world, as such.
I appreciate your tenacity, but we must also understand that God is not the Bible. The Bible reveals Truth, but it is not the totality Truth. It may be all that we need to understand God, as much as possible on our level. But it comes nowhere near encapsulating or expositing all that is knowable about God or Truth.
SD
And yet we cannot say that he is a sphere because all we are shown is a circle.
Maybe you read limits on God in your Bible, but I do not in mine. As I said earlier, the question (still unanswered) is simple: is God the Creator and Master of time, or is He subject to it?
SD
1) You're using 'time' words in trying to tell me that there was a time 'before' time. 2) That is not the meaning of the phrase, "timeless truths." See again the definition: "valid or true at all times." Not apart from time.
So tell me then, can God lie? According to your logic, that the Bible says 'no' is 'reading a limit on God.'
As far as your question: you never asked me. You asked winston. My answer, personally, is "God is subject to time only in that he is subject to his own nature."
If "time" slows with velocity and stops, or ceases to be at light speed, how then can it be a constant?
No, God cannot lie not because of "reading a limit on God", except a self imposed limit of God not acting contrary to His nature, not because of anyone's "logic" as you suppose. God being Truth, by definition cannot lie, or else God is not Truth. The Law of noncontradiction stands.
Please. God does not lie as it is against His nature to lie. Is it your claim that being subject to time is somehow a part of God's nature?
As far as your question: you never asked me. You asked winston. My answer, personally, is "God is subject to time only in that he is subject to his own nature."
Oh, I see you are. Are depth and breadth, and temperature, and voltage and other measurements of physical phenomena also part of God's "own nature"?
SD
If "time" slows with velocity and stops, or ceases to be at light speed, how then can it be a constant?
Was the light here? Is it there? It's a constant. You assume 'time' to be a physical property. Perhaps the measurement of it is, but time itself is a metaphysical concept. It is simply sequence of events, physical or otherwise. With that in mind, it is easy to see time as an eternal constant, for it started in the mind of the Eternal.
It is my claim that God "thinks" in sequence, and thus, in time; since he "thinks" in time, and all things derive from him, it is a divine attribute.
Oh, I see you are. Are depth and breadth, and temperature, and voltage and other measurements of physical phenomena also part of God's "own nature"?
Nope, but time isn't just a measurement of a physical phenomenon. It's also a metaphysical concept quite divorced from quantum mechanics.
I am aware that you think so. I just don't think it is fitting for an allmighty to be limited in this way. You are confusing how He reveals Himself to us, in time, with how He truly is.
Nope, but time isn't just a measurement of a physical phenomenon. It's also a metaphysical concept quite divorced from quantum mechanics.
Do you believe, then, that Time is an uncreated thing?
SD
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