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To: The Grammarian
There have been other interpretations of the lines in Matthew and Mark. My question, for curiosity's sake, is, How do those of you who believe that God literally 'forsook' his Son reconcile that with the doctrine of the Trinity?

Logically speaking, as I wrote in a previous post, for God the Father to forsake God the Son would be to create a wedge in the Godhead, breaking the unity of the Trinity. How do you get around that objection, or do you leave the question blank?

There was already a "break in the Trinity", as you put it, documented in Philippians 2:6-11. Jesus emptied Himself and (as historic, orthodox Christianity puts it) took on a second nature. He confined Himself to human form. The Nicene Creed codified (not created) this Biblical understanding, telling us that Jesus was "fully God, and fully man", i.e. possessed two natures. Jesus' deity was never separated from the Godhead; His humanity, however, was. The Second Person of the Trinity did not cease to exist on the cross, but the Son of Man did in fact die before God. God forsook that Man.

It's tough to get the mind around the concept, but that's the historic understanding.

363 posted on 02/05/2004 8:07:21 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
There was already a "break in the Trinity", as you put it, documented in Philippians 2:6-11. Jesus emptied Himself and (as historic, orthodox Christianity puts it) took on a second nature. He confined Himself to human form. The Nicene Creed codified (not created) this Biblical understanding, telling us that Jesus was "fully God, and fully man", i.e. possessed two natures. Jesus' deity was never separated from the Godhead; His humanity, however, was. The Second Person of the Trinity did not cease to exist on the cross, but the Son of Man did in fact die before God. God forsook that Man.

I hardly call 'emptying' himself of the powers of the Godhead creating a 'break' within the Trinity. Other than that, though, what you are telling me is that Jesus' divine and human natures could be separated? Wouldn't that destroy the nature of the sacrifice that he made, then, since the point has been stated that he had to be the Perfect man, and therefore Deity as well as Man, in order for the sacrifice to be efficacious?

It sounds too similar to the theory that Jesus' divinity left him at the cross, leaving only his human nature to take the suffering of the cross. As Clarke says, "Some suppose 'that the divinity had now departed from Christ, and that his human nature was left unsupported to bear the punishment due to men for their sins.' But this is by no means to be admitted, as it would deprive his sacrifice of its infinite merit, and consequently leave the sin of the world without an atonement. Take deity away from any redeeming act of Christ, and redemption is ruined."

369 posted on 02/05/2004 8:20:12 AM PST by The Grammarian
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To: Vernon; xzins; Alex Murphy; Corin Stormhands; The Grammarian
Thank you all for such a wonderful discussion!

If I may, I’d like to interject yet a few more thoughts.

I find it rather curious that so much effort is concentrated on finding literal rationalization of the words ”My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me” but almost none on such phrases as ”thou hast heard me from horns of the unicorns”, ”Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.”.

I relate to Vernon’s cautions concerning interpreting prophesy whether Psalms, Daniel, Revelation or whatever. All prophesy must be spiritually discerned; reason alone does not satisfy. (John 5:37-39)

Going back to the Cross, I see Jesus who is the fulfillment of Scripture, the Word made flesh, and the context of the prophesy itself, pointing to this particular prophesy at the most overarching event of all mortal existence. That puts this prophesy in a very bright Light!!!

The prophesy must be taken in its entirety, which includes ”neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard” and ”My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation” and ”They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this]”.

IOW, He is speaking directly to each of us, over all of physical existence - and in eternity, from the Cross, Spiritually. As with all prophesy, though some events are literal in earthy fulfillment the meaning is Spiritual and that is how it must be discerned.

With regard to “Christ being naked before God”, I would like to offer another prophesy for your discernment and discussion:

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be] seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree. - Zechariah 3


374 posted on 02/05/2004 8:34:12 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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