Question for Freeper Catholics

""""""""""Instead you cling to an ever-changing doctrine that today differs significantly from what was declared "infallible" at Trent.
Where I come from, things like this are called "lies." You've already demonstrated you have no capacity to understand complicated things. So your sitting here and pronouncing that things you don't even understand have changed and are "ever-changing" is pretty laughable.

Honest people try to understand things they don't want to believe. Dishonest and self-satisfied people just continue on as if no one has even tried to instruct them where they are ignorant.

I have lost a lot of respect for you these last two days. You used to seem reasonable. I now see you have joined Havoc's crew in escheing "Reason" as a tool of the devil.

Repeat your lies if you must. You may even believe them. But don't pretend someone didn't try to help you understand the truth.

SD""""""""""

Oh no you aren't going to continue to tell us that we are stupid, ignorant, and set in our ways, just because we refuse to >>> UNDERSTAND <<<<

We understand what you're daying, but that doesn't mean we have to believe what YOU are saying is the absolute truth.
No more than we excpect you to take are word for batum.

You know, this is getting a little immature. This discussion should be open to reading, acknowledging, and respect. Thats' all.

I didn't come here to convert, that's what the Scripture is for.

Don't you go saying we don't understand.
WE DON"T ACCEPT!
WE DON"T ACCEPT!

And I'm not apologizing for repeating an answer, cuz it was obviously soo good the first time, I had to say it again!

You know what? Why don't you figure out what you're talking about before you go implying that Catholics may not have the right beliefs. Go study the history of the Bible from the beginning and get back to us then.

History of the Bible goes back 5-6,000 years. Catholics tend to go back 2,000.

Oh no you aren't going to continue to tell us that we are stupid, ignorant, and set in our ways, just because we refuse to >>> UNDERSTAND <<<<

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

OK, since you are so smart, and understanding, explain the Catholic concept of Purgatory to me.

You know, this is getting a little immature. This discussion should be open to reading, acknowledging, and respect. Thats' all.

Spare me. You post vile lies about Catholic murdering people, and now you want to be mature and open? Grow up. Read something that isn't a comic book.

I could throw that back in your direction too.

""You confess your ignorance, and yet don't let it stop you from spouting your ill-formed opinions. Do you think that is wise, or even Christian?

SD""

But I don't mind confessing it. Will you?
What I think is wise doesn't matter. How do you know that it's propaganda? How do you know it's not so? I've heard it, and read books about these things for years.
I'm not perfect in the flesh, but I'm saved, and perfect in spirit. And every day, Christ through the Holy Spirit,, is opening my eyes to truths, His love, and His ways.

I'm a little ignorant, but if it weren't for a little ignorance, God wouldn't be able to teach me what I know.
And, you too believe in propaganda from the Vatican, just like I believe in my own source of propaganda.
Of course what I'm sharing, (HEARSAY) is not from scripture, and is not in defence of scripture. This being the case, it's very Christian of me, to share what I know to be true of history, because we are supposed to be accountable to each other in faith.

:)

""Spare me. You post vile lies about Catholic murdering people, and now you want to be mature and open? Grow up. Read something that isn't a comic book.

SD""

Spare you, not my job, Christ died on the cross for that.

Lies about Catholic murdering people... uhmm not lies, truth about Jesuit priests doing this.
And it wasn't murder, it was worse, persecution for what somone else believed of God.

Oh, I've been mature through this whole think, I've not questioned your reliability yet. I've simply questioned the pope and his clergy.

My definition of purgatory, was earlier stated to purification after death so as to enter heaven.

Christs never preached salvation, or repentance to a dead crowd.

and what comic book are you referring to?
Jack Chick?
Oh, he may be far fetched,
but before I ever picked up a Chick track, I'd heard and observed documented proof back in 1994.
My first Chick track was back in 1999.

But I don't mind confessing it. Will you?

If the occasion arises.

I'm not perfect in the flesh, but I'm saved, and perfect in spirit.

So you're gnostic? You think that the body contains and holds all of your sins, and that once you are free of your body you will have no sin in you?

If the body is the source and location of sin, how did Lucifer sin?

This being the case, it's very Christian of me, to share what I know to be true of history, because we are supposed to be accountable to each other in faith.

Spreading historical lies or half-truths is not a service to anyone, let alone yourself. Ask yourself, "if someone told me all of these bad things about Catholics, but nothing to balance it, or to put it into perspective, is that prejudicing my opinion of the Catholic faith"? And was the telling of these tall talse meant to do that?

Lies about Catholic murdering people... uhmm not lies, truth about Jesuit priests doing this. And it wasn't murder, it was worse, persecution for what somone else believed of God.

All lies. Meant to make you hate Catholics and the Catholic Faith. You've bought it hook, line and sinker.

My definition of purgatory, was earlier stated to purification after death so as to enter heaven.

That's not what you said earlier. You said people have to plead for their salvation and earn their way into heaven.

So you have found a way to recognize the true teaching. Congratulations.

Christs never preached salvation, or repentance to a dead crowd.

Sigh. Here we go again. Who, exactly, said He did? Is this something you read in Foxe's?

but before I ever picked up a Chick track, I'd heard and observed documented proof back in 1994. My first Chick track was back in 1999.

Admitting you've read a Chick tract is a first for FR. Thanks for being honest. When you speak of "documented" proof, you need to ask exactly whom do you trust to do this "documentation."

It's obvious you don't know what the Bible says about salvation.

Once saved, we are a new creature in Christ,.
We are perfected in the spirit, our inherited sins from adam are washed away by the blood of the lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our flesh is still of the old person. The Bible says that we don't fight powers and principalities, but we fight our flesh.

The flesh continues to carry the fingerprints of our past sins. After one has accepted Christ into his heart, he is born again of the spirit, not the flesh. JOHN chapter 3.

And when we sin again, we are already covered by Christs blood, He asks to we still confess, and forgive others, but there is no way to lose our place in the Lambs book of life, except for the promise in Revelations 22 vs 18-19.

So after salvation, my flesh will continue to tempt me from it's old familiar ways.
But that is why I'm saved, so as to be able to ignore the temptations.

However, Satan no longer has any temptational claim to the redeemed believer.

We are heirs to the THRONE now, not heirs to the Grave!

It is fine that you don't accept but the worm turns both ways. We know what you believe and we don't accept it. We know what we believe and we believe it whether you do or not. For most of us it is an extremely well thought out understanding. I don't remember going on a non-Catholic thread and implying that what you believe is stupid. I think it has been the other way around.

I won't argue Bible or doctrine with non-Catholics because they lack so much knowledge and understanding and I will have to trust the Holy Spirit to enlighten us all.

Read back through the last 100 posts, I have been referring to this definition of purification after death before entering heaven for a while now.

My point was, if Christ would've preached to a dead crowd of believers, than I can understand the misgivings about purification of the sins after death.

But He has to living breathing onlookers, multitudes, and crowds to believe in me and I'll give you everlasting life, a new creature, forgiveness of all sins,
make you clean, white as snow.

These were said to living people, so that the act of purification should be completed before death, in prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

How can anyone say that Purgatory is legit, when what few scriptural men (lazarus- old testament, lazarus-new testament, jesus, and the future moses & elias) who had died, after their death, the scripture gives no reference to their still needing purification.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man in the old testament, Lazarus immediately went to Abrahams bosom, which was the place the saints of old retired to, until Christs resurrection. Then there bodies, during the resurrection were loosed from the ground.

Also, Lazarus in the new testament didn't mention anything about a temporary punishment.
What about elijah, he was wisked away into the sky by a chariot. That doesn't sound like temporary punishment to me.

And what about Christ, he didn't die for are sins, and go into temporary punishment so he'd be clean, he was resurrected saying he'd gone to get the keys of death from the grave.

So, there is no place in Scripture, at least from my examples, where there was an temporary punishment, for purification of sins, before entering heaven.

I apologize if it seems I'm attacking the beliefs of Roman Catholicism.
I will say that I've many friends of the modern, american Catholic faith, and they are indeed open to the Holy Spirit, and good christian men/women.

I will admit to challenging the Pope his teachings, and the Council of Trents application to Christianity and Church history.
After Christ's resurrection, there should've continued on, a line of discipleship amongst the living. And no one should've ever formed a unified church.

In the kjv, at least, the bible has stated that the believers should follow Christs teachings.
But the Pope, and Council of trent of old, started forming their own congregation of people, with amended beliefs, and doctrines.

I'm I wrong in this observation.?

I won't argue Bible or doctrine with non-Catholics because they lack so much knowledge and understanding and I will have to trust the Holy Spirit to enlighten us all.

That might work on the new people to the forum. But I've experienced first hand all of your knowledge and understanding.

Read back through the last 100 posts, I have been referring to this definition of purification after death before entering heaven for a while now.

You are reading somethign other than what I am. You posted the same old strawmen over and over, liek the others. don't try revisionism now. You just now came up with a passable definition for purgatory. Don't pretend otherwise.

We can all go back and read.

These were said to living people, so that the act of purification should be completed before death, in prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, you are pure now? You have no sin or attachment to sin or desire to sin or anythign that seperates you from complete and utter love and service to the Lord?

Or is all that "bad stuff" going to stay with your body to decay int he grave, while the "good you" goes to Heaven?

Do you think if we didn't have bodies, we wouldn't be able to sin? Didn't I just ask you this? What about Lucifer? Did he have a body?

(PS: Like the rest, you somehow confuse "temporal punishment" with "temporary punishment." Words mean things. I can't believe that your side is the one arguing how easy it is for each person to read and understand everything.)

I will admit to challenging the Pope his teachings, and the Council of Trents application to Christianity and Church history.

How in the world can you do this, when you've already admitted that you've never read anythign from Trent? And when you demonstrated that you don't understand the Church's teachings.

What you have done is decided to follow the teachings of someone about what Trent and the Pope teach.

So, whom are you trusting? Didn't I already ask this as well?

I'm outta here for now, I'm going to get back to the books, and really do some personal inquiries as to what've learned.

I just want to say this,
for example,
Evolution is a lie too,
just like I'm saying that purgatory is a lie,
and just like SD is saying that the accusations of early Church priests persecuting believers is a lie.

But I learned early on that Evolution was indeed a lie.

I wasn't wrong to learn about that, and I'll not stop trying to learn about the truth of Church history.

Christ said to rebuke decievers.
And if any of us find out we've been decieved, it's our duty as Gods Servants to find out the truth, and let it be known.

Well, I'll see you all later.
Take care,
Gods Grace be with you.
Keep the faith, be strong, and seek the truth.

Our flesh is still of the old person. The Bible says that we don't fight powers and principalities, but we fight our flesh.

The flesh continues to carry the fingerprints of our past sins. After one has accepted Christ into his heart, he is born again of the spirit, not the flesh. JOHN chapter 3.

Dave, look up and read John chapter 3, and explain it to me.

Maybe I'm missing something.
We can not be saved of the flesh, but our souls are saveable.

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