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John Paul II Hails "Inestimable Value" of Priestly Celibacy
www.zenit.org ^ | JAN. 26, 2004

Posted on 01/27/2004 6:55:05 AM PST by johnb2004

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To: saradippity
Thanks for your affirmation. (Sure beats a sharp stick in the eye).

?;^T
41 posted on 01/27/2004 12:31:16 PM PST by Barnacle ("It is as it was." JPII)
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To: sitetest
I am not looking for an argument. It just seems self evident that a lack of catechesis is a fundamental problem. I know of no way to prove or disprove your assertion that Catholics today are as catechized as in previous periods.

The point is many, if not most Catholics, today do not know their faith. Pop culture has a bigger influence in forming their conscience than the Church does. I blame those in charge for faltering, compromising and spreading error to the faithful. You can't disagree that if there were better catechesis, the Church would most likely better in better shape?

Your inference about my argument is correct.
42 posted on 01/27/2004 1:11:26 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: saradippity
Can you give a pretty comprehensive list of those non-doctrinal matters in which the laity should have a voice.

I don't know how comprehensive a list I can give you, but I'd like laymen to be able to assume a greater role in financial matters in the Church. In fact, a panel of laymen should clear every major financial decision in a diocese. It's quite possible a monstrosity like that built by Mahoney for $200 million in Los Angeles would have been smaller, or not built at all. What a colossal waste of money that could have been better used somewhere else.

We have a very progressive priest in our parish who came here two years ago. One of his first acts was to dissolve the finance committee; he said he didn't need them.

Well, the parish was in the hole last year, missing a $950, 000 budget by $125,000, which had to come out of parish savings.

With no finance committee, he has no laymen who are going to stick their necks out for him to go to parishioners to ask them to pledge more. I told him he made a colossal mistake when he dissolved that committee, and he now admits he did.

I suggested our diocese have laymen help the bishop set strategy for the diocese: what are the priorities and how can we meet them?

The bishop decided he didn't need a committee, so he sets strategy. His objective is to increase the number of seminarians for the diocese. His plan? Have priests give sermons on vocations. My idea was to have some permanent deacons, and even laymen, talk about the value of the ordained ministry in parishes, and do this as a team effort, to make sure every parish is reached.

If this is left up to the individual pastors, they won't do it.

So, even "liberal" bishops and priests prefer to do it all themselves, then they wonder why people don't listen to them.

43 posted on 01/27/2004 2:47:21 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Salvation
"1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith."

Huh! Damned cheek!!!
44 posted on 01/27/2004 4:44:48 PM PST by Tantumergo (Note to self: beware perils of reading things out of context. ;))
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To: onedoug
"I can't help but think that married clergy would enhance the laity's control over their church."

No - not the laity in general. Just one laywoman in each parish!!!
45 posted on 01/27/2004 4:47:14 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Barnacle
"my whole perspective on life took a quantum leap when I got married and another one when I became a father."

And now you REALLY know what martyrdom's all about!

;)
46 posted on 01/27/2004 4:52:11 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith."

Well, that explains me. How'd you slip through?

47 posted on 01/27/2004 4:54:47 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
"Well, that explains me. How'd you slip through?"

LOL!

Who the hell writes these things???!!!
48 posted on 01/27/2004 5:04:53 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
Who the hell writes these things?

It reminds me of a rubric in the old Roman Missal.

The question? "What should the celebrant do if a fly falls in the Precious Blood?"

Answer: "The celebrant should, if not too distressed, consume the fly along with the Precious Blood."

What's the Latin for "distressed"?

Nauseam?

49 posted on 01/27/2004 5:09:55 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
I agree with a lot of that.

In my opinion,the committees would need to be set up "ad hoc" to deal with each specific item. The membership of the committee would need to be open to all interested Catholics and those Catholics would have to show fairly active participation in the parish,demonstrated by enrollment and contributions.I would think the results should be mandated to be published in the diocesan newspaper at the very least.Finally,the bishop would have the final word.

This last item may not meet with your concurrence but I believe the best way to keep the Barque steady and afloat is to require bishops be required to explain how they came to their decisions.If the bishops had to be accountible to the Pope and the sheep they might finally start following Christ.It would also provide a lot of "teaching moments" for them.

50 posted on 01/27/2004 6:13:30 PM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity
This last item may not meet with your concurrence but I believe the best way to keep the Barque steady and afloat is to require bishops be required to explain how they came to their decisions.,

I absolutely concur with that. Adults don't like being told to do things "because I said so." Give a person an explanation for how decisions are made, and most reasonable people will accept it, even if they disagree with it.

51 posted on 01/27/2004 6:17:51 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
PRAYER FOR A "DRUNKEN" FLY

My oh my,I swallowed a fly,

Will he live through the passage,or will he die?

Mea culpa,mea culpa,mea maxima culpa.

52 posted on 01/27/2004 6:25:58 PM PST by saradippity
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

To: Barnacle
Here's my theory on the rationale. A priest could much more easily subject himself to martyrdom if necessary if he doesn't have a wife and children.

I agree with you. Plus, having a family, can lead, as it has in kirks that don't mandate celibacy, to conflicting tugs -- to please the children, etc. But the Eastern Orthodox's method seems like a proven thing. That may be the way to go -- allowing married men to join, but keeping the higher echelons for those who would not have two possible devotions. Of course, religious like Jesuits or monks have to be celibate. Parish priests, well, maybe..
54 posted on 01/28/2004 1:46:58 AM PST by Cronos (W2004!)
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To: cooperjones
It is also weird to me that the Catholic Church believes that her priests are some sort of new testament version of the old "high priests" of the temple at Jerusalem. That's pretty weird and unbiblical to me.

According to Marty Barrack, a Jewish convert and author of the book Second Exodus,

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

There is a straight line between Moses, who said, Ex 24:8 "Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you," to Jesus, who said, Mt 26:28 "This is My Blood of the Covenant." This talk, based on Second Exodus chapter 7, shows how the Mass we celebrate today has ancient origins in Judaism.

Liturgy

We find our Jewish heritage in the church as well. The priest's vestments at Mass have ancient origins. His outer garment, the chasuble, a large cone-shaped cloth with a hole for the head, was often worn in Palestine during the Greek and Roman occupations. Its beauty and adornments go all the way back to Aaron. God had told Moses, Ex 28:2, 4 "You shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty … These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve Me as priests. They shall receive gold, blue and purple and scarlet stuff, and fine twined linen." Ex 39:1 "Of the blue and purple and scarlet stuff they made finely wrought garments, for ministering in the holy place; they made the holy garments for Aaron, as the Lord had commanded Moses."

Every Catholic church has a tabernacle, where lives the Word Made Flesh. In the synagogues, the tabernacle holds the Word of God in ancient Torah scrolls. Beside the Catholic tabernacle, and beside the synagogue tabernacle, is a candle. Both go back to the time of Moses. Ex 40:35 "The glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle … For throughout all their journeys the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel." Today we still see that fire, now a steady candle, and know as then that God is inside.

That blood-red tabernacle candle, reminding us that Jesus who died to redeem us is present, reminds Jews as well of the yahrzeit or memorial candles they light each year to remember the departed.

As the Mass begins, the priest processes down the center aisle as rabbis from time immemorial have also processed. Our entrance antiphon continues an ancient Jewish tradition of singing from one of the 150 psalms.

When the priest arrives at the altar he kisses it. Altar is a Hebrew word that means, "place of sacrifice."

On solemn occasions, the priest or deacon will spread incense around the altar. The rising smoke symbolizes our prayers ascending heavenward in God's sight. Ps 141:2 "Let my prayer be counted as incense before Thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice." The evening sacrifice, of course, was the Passover sacrifice, Ex 12:6 when every Jewish family was instructed to sacrifice a paschal lamb in the evening twilight.

The priest's greeting, "The Lord be with you" comes from the Book of Ruth. 2:4 "Boaz came from Bethlehem; and he said to the reapers, 'The Lord be with you.'"

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass uses three words in their original Hebrew. Amen comes from the Hebrew word emunah, faith, and means, "Yes, it's true!" Alleluia means "Praise God!" Hosanna means "God saves!" These three words remind us at every Mass of our Jewish origins.

During our Shepherd's time, synagogue worship consisted of prayers, psalms, and Torah readings. The Torah readings were based on a three-year cycle, starting on the Sabbath after the Feast of Tabernacles and reading a portion each week until the end three years later on the last day of the same feast. In that way the entire Torah was read aloud to be sure every Jew was exposed to it. Holy Mother Church continues the Jewish tradition with Sunday Gospel readings on a three year cycle. Year A relies on Matthew's Gospel, Year B on Mark's, and Year C on Luke's Gospel. These readings cover over 7,000 verses, including nearly all of the New Testament, to help us know our sacred Scripture.

The deacon's, or priest's, homily continues the Jewish synagogue tradition that the rabbi offer a sermon. In the old villages, the rabbi was often the only educated man in town. While everyone was gathered together it was a good opportunity for a little teaching. In the church as in the synagogue, the idea is to explain to this particular congregation the Word of God that has just been proclaimed.

The ancient Jews brought offerings to their priests for sacrifice. Lv 7:29 "He that offers the sacrifice of his peace offerings to the Lord shall bring his offering … The priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be for Aaron and his sons." The early Christians continued this tradition by bringing up gifts of food as thank offerings in a procession very much like the one we have today.

Jews for thousands of years have prayed over bread, "Blessed are you, Lord our God, king of the universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth." As he begins the Preparation of the Gifts, the priest prays: "Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life." Jews have prayed over wine for thousands of years and still do today. "Blessed are you, Lord our God, king of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine." The priest prepares the wine for consecration by saying, "Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink."

After the priest says, "Lord God, we ask you to receive us and be pleased with the sacrifice we offer you with humble and contrite hearts," he washes his hands, continuing the Jewish tradition, Ps 26:6 "I wash my hands in innocence, and go about thy altar, O Lord."

Morning synagogue prayer always includes the Kedushah. Its first part comes from Isaiah's vision of the seraphim singing joyfully, 6:3 "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts! The whole earth is full of His glory!" The second is from Psalm 118, 26 "Blessed is He who enters in the name of the Lord." Our Sanctus comes directly from the Kedushah: "Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might. Heaven and earth are full of your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest."

Jews end every prayer service with the Kaddish as a proclamation of God's greatness. It begins: "Raise high and glorify the name of God. Throughout the world He created by His will. May He build a kingdom in your life, during your days, and during the life of all the House of Israel. Soon, and in a time close at hand." We begin our Communion Rite with a very similar prayer: "Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Our Jewish Heritage

55 posted on 01/28/2004 6:32:35 AM PST by NYer ("One person and God make an army." - St. Teresa of Avila)
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To: cooperjones
Israel means, "struggle with God". 'Sums up my relationship with Him pretty well.
56 posted on 01/28/2004 10:45:39 AM PST by onedoug
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Comment #57 Removed by Moderator


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