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Why Does God Allow Evil? - Email from a Skeptic
Koinonea House Online ^ | Dr Mark Eastman

Posted on 01/23/2004 5:41:11 PM PST by xzins

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To: xzins
Let's look at Christ & Judas. Without Judas, would there have been a crucifixion & thence resurrection?
21 posted on 01/24/2004 8:35:26 AM PST by P.O.E.
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To: AppyPappy
I agree that the evil nature of man is part of it.

The author of this agrees with that, too.

Good point.
22 posted on 01/24/2004 8:42:27 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: P.O.E.
The bible indicates that God foresaw Judas making his decision to be a traitor. Therefore, there was a point in time at which Judas had a choice.
23 posted on 01/24/2004 8:45:18 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
The article's author is a bit mistaken, although he presents some interesting arguments.

God follows a policy of grace, while Satan follows a policy of evil. This says nothing to the etymology of the two terms, but helps place their meaning in perspective. Evil and sin are discernible terms. Not all sin is immediately discerned as evil, but is used by Satan to promote a cosmic evil. Sin was atoned on the cross, not evil. Evil is a problem that must be solved in time, whereas the cross has provided judgment for all sin for all time. Accordingly let's look at the conclusion of the article.

In order that we might not suffer the penalty of our evil choices (sin), He, like a loving father, paid the penalty for our sins. He allowed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be murdered on a Roman cross (arguably the most evil act in the history of the universe, if He is indeed God's Son). But this act of great evil gave rise to an even better state of affairs, and the greatest act of love in the universe: paying the penalty for the wrong choices we make, which were the result of the way He created us in the first place! In the cross of Christ He has provided a full pardon from the consequences of the evil in our lives.

The tone of the conclusion seems reasonable, but misses the target from the actual Scritural doctrines available to us. Let's take it line by line.

In order that we might not suffer the penalty of our evil choices (sin),

There are still consequences of evil. The penalty of Sin or disobedience to His will, has been paid for, fully and completely, on the Cross by Jesus Christ, the Son.

(Some discernment between divine good and human good is appropriate as well as understanding Holiness is composed of Perfect Judgment and Perfect Righteousness as symbolized by the Arc of the Covenant in the Holiest of Holies.)

A freemason who builds a children's hospital and finances the operation in order a sick child may be healed by man without burden of financial cost is very good,....humanly good. If that charity is not provided FIRST, through faith in God, then that charity and 'love' is simply an appeal to arrogance.

An arrogant charity, is parlayed into evil by Satan using that charity to advance a counterfeit system to God's plan. God allows this evil to occur based upon His policy of grace.

Even though God omnisciently understands the shortcomings of human good, he still allows it, in part, because those who will come to a loving, perseverant, faithful relationship with Him in Holiness, approach initially from a sinful state. The allowance of evil, helps demonstrate to His faithful, the substance of how His plan is just and righteous even in the face of any counterfeit plan (frequently referred to as a cosmic plan or 'kosmos' in the Greek or worldly).

He, like a loving father, paid the penalty for our sins.

Wrong object of love in Scripture. The focus of the Father with respect to the Son on the Cross was Judgment, Judgment, Judgment!

God is perfect Holiness. Wherever he is confronted with a lack of righteousness or unrighteousness, His Holiness demands Judgment.

Jesus Christ was the Incarnation of God,..(God in the flesh) . Jesus Christ possessed 2 natures, the divine and the human nature, in one person. He also provided the perfect example for all man to live as God created man.

Throughout His first coming, even unto and on the Cross, Jesus Christ displayed this magnificient example of how to live our life and problem solve per God's methods. We orient ourselves to His grace and we solve problems through faith in Him. Every problem ever encountered in life is only properly solved in this fashion. Even on the cross, even when a most degrading physical infliction was pressed upon Jesus Christ, he remained faithful and solved the problem by remaining faithful to the Father, even unto his death, or a state of separation of soul and spirit and body.

The significance is that the Father wasn't paying a penalty. The Son was remianing faithful and kept oriented to the grace of God in His thinking, simply as a human.

Even though Jesus Christ had legions of angels at His beck and call, He remained faithful to the Father who was judging ALL imputed sins of mankind on Jesus Christ at the Cross.

The fact that Jesus Christ was being crucified or physically killed is a bit mute, although His physical death and ressurrection allows the prototype for the bodily ressurection of believers. The more significant point for young believers is that Jesus Christ remained faithful, kept his soul (mind) focused on obedience to the Father through faith, even unto death. Nothing shall separate us from His love, including death. Without the sins being judged by the Father, a relationship between man and God still would not be possible, because His Holiness demands Perfect Judgment whereever a lack in righteousness exists, including even the least unwitting sin any person might commit.

The significance of the Father's role at the Cross was Judgment.

He allowed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be murdered on a Roman cross (arguably the most evil act in the history of the universe, if He is indeed God's Son).

IMHO, Wrong perspective. Some Calvinist doctrines would go further to declare the people choosing Barabas en lieu of Jesus Christ had nothing to do with His bodily death, because Jesus Christ was still in complete control of the situation.

The importance of Christ on the Cross, was not that man was murdering Him. Quite the opposite, the importance of Christ on the Cross was Judgment of all sin. All sin of man being imputed to Jesus Christ while He was on the Cross and being judged for all of those sins is the important aspect of the cross.

Our access to God is through Jesus Christ, the Son, not the Father directly.

But this act of great evil gave rise to an even better state of affairs,

The cross was not an act of evil. The plan was an act of grace to impute all of the sins of mankind, past, present, and future onto the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and then their Judgment. The Judgment was perfect in Perfect Holiness, not an evil act. The significance of the conflict between those who intended murder and the grace of God is that the Grace of God prevails and doesn't submit to evil even in the harshest most extreme conditions of physicality, soulish attack or even spiritual denial, through faith in Him.

..."paying the penalty for the wrong choices we make, which were the result of the way He created us in the first place! .."

As long as one remains out of fellowship with God through faith in Him, we can still make good, but it is only human good, which is insufficient to relate to divine righteousness. The issue isn't as much 'wrong choices, as much as it is remaining in faith through Christ in all choices we make. The most humanly wrong choices made, if still performed through faith in Him are still counted for righteousness.

God didn't creat man as a sinner. Man through his volition became a sinner. The penalty of sin has been paid by Jesus Christ. Our only hope is to lay claim to that salvation through faith in Him.

In the cross of Christ He has provided a full pardon from the consequences of the evil in our lives.

This last statement is emphatically wrong. Evil was not atoned by Christ on the Cross. Sin was the atonement. The consequences of evil are paid for over time.

24 posted on 01/24/2004 9:04:22 AM PST by Cvengr (;^))
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To: Cvengr
A valuable read. You put a lot of work in the writing. Some of your points, I have to wonder if you and the author wouldn't agree if the 2 of you could sit down and compare words and meanings.

I think the points where you understand him referencing the wrong person of the Godhead would fit the above.

Your point about the "consequence" of sin is well taken. I agree with you after looking at his wording. (Although, he might say the same thing; that he wrote poorly what he was trying to say.) We DO suffer the "this-world" consequences of our sin. He should have worded it differently.

25 posted on 01/24/2004 9:23:31 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
But without that choice there'd have been no story, and thus no lesson. To choose another example, the "dark night of the soul" is what you have to go through to get to the other side. A leap across the abyss, so to speak.
26 posted on 01/24/2004 9:35:13 AM PST by P.O.E.
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To: P.O.E.; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe
I see an extremely strong parallel between Judas and the pharaoh who Moses confronted to let God's people go.

Pharaoh saw God's power and hardened his heart; he saw God's power again and again hardened his heart; this went on and on. We're then told that God "fixed" his heart. In other words, the Pharaoh had shown his colors and God then simply firmed up the decision in an eternal "fixing" as firm as concrete.

Judas saw Jesus heal; and then he stole money. He saw Jesus feed 1000's and then he stole money. He saw this again and again, and he continued to steal. When the resurrection of Lazarus came around, and he traded Jesus soon afterward for 30 pieces of silver, he had fully qualified himself to be "selected" by God for the fulfillment that God intended for him.

27 posted on 01/24/2004 9:43:26 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
Some hearts are melted by God's love, others like the Pharaohs and Judas hearts are hardened like wax.
28 posted on 01/24/2004 10:29:09 AM PST by massiveblob
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To: xzins; P.O.E.; Alamo-Girl
God knew his heart. When God hardened his heart, he did not make him do something he didn't want to do. He simply made him want to do that which he wanted to do all that much more. Hardening of the heart is hardening of the resolve. It is allowing and assisting you to have the courage of your convictions.

Would that the Lord would strengthen my resolve to do good and to seek his face.

BTW just out of curiosity, how can God harden a dead heart? Would he not have to bring it to life in order to harden it? If it were dead (as defined by some around here) it would be as hard as it could get. Perhaps "dead" doesn't exactly mean the absence of any life whatsoever, but merely (as I contend) separated -- soul from body or soul and spirit from God.

29 posted on 01/24/2004 10:33:00 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o* &AAGG)
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To: P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; P.O.E.; massiveblob
Perhaps "dead" doesn't mean absence of any life whatsoever

This is from an article posted yesterday: The sinful human mind is bent on argument with the Law, but the conscience will agree with it. It bears witness. This is such an important point. The sinner's understanding (the mind) is "darkened," but the conscience is a "light" that God has given to every man. The word "con-science" means "with knowledge." Some people seem to have no conscience but it is just seared (see 1 Tim 4:2) - hardened so that it has lost its ability to function. The correct use of the Law will resurrect it. When you speak directly to the conscience of a hardened sinner by saying "You know that it's wrong to steal, to lie, to commit adultery, etc.," the conscience affirms the truth of the Commandment. He will even unconsciously nod in affirmation.

Back to the illustration of the heart attack victim on the gurney whose heart has stopped. (Is he dead...yes; Is he dead....who knows) The jolt brings him back!

30 posted on 01/24/2004 10:48:07 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
Please include me in those pings too. I'm interested in what you folks think about that.
31 posted on 01/24/2004 11:06:19 AM PST by The Grammarian
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To: xzins
Just to spur discussion...

Before the creation of man God created the host of heavens - angels. We don’t know much about this but we do know that one third of them fell. Calvinists would say these angels were meant to fall. The Armenians viewpoint would have to say these angels had the right to chose. Certainly a loving God who wanted worship from His creation would do the same for the angels.

If these angels had the “right to chose” than why did God find it necessary to create mankind? And when the angels fell didn’t He cast Satan and his crew into the Lake of Fire at that point? And what was the purpose of man? He already had beings that made a “choice” and would worship Him.
32 posted on 01/24/2004 11:15:09 AM PST by HarleyD (READ Your Bible-STUDY to show yourself approved)
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To: The Grammarian
Will do, Grammar.

You mean the "time" pings, correct?
33 posted on 01/24/2004 11:21:56 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
You mean the "time" pings, correct?

Yep, the time pings. Thanks.

34 posted on 01/24/2004 11:26:26 AM PST by The Grammarian
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To: HarleyD; P-Marlowe; The Grammarian; Revelation 911; Corin Stormhands; Vernon; bzrd; opus86; ...
I know that all redemption and all judgement come together in Jesus.

Whatever else is said, Jesus is the best reason for creating humans.

Satan's fall implies that angels, too, have free will.

Why did God have to create another order of beings? I've often wondered in Revelation why Satan is imprisoned and then released one final time. Is it to beyond all doubt demonstrate his evil intent toward the good God has created? We know that we are in some way wrapped up in his judgement.

I'm just speculating here and open to other ideas/reconsideration of what I've said.
35 posted on 01/24/2004 11:27:37 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; The Grammarian
Thank you so very much for your kind reply and the very engaging link and thank you for including me in your future discussions of time!

If you read the link on my post number 12, you'll notice that I am a sponge for geometric physics, temporal and spatial dimensionality, relativity and the ilk. Therefore, if I get too far into the science side of time here on the religion forum please remind me.

36 posted on 01/24/2004 11:52:48 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: xzins
I'm probably equally as guilty in some of my positions,
37 posted on 01/24/2004 12:23:11 PM PST by Cvengr (;^))
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To: Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; The Grammarian
We will definitely ping you in the future. I'll check out your provided link.

38 posted on 01/24/2004 1:35:27 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: P-Marlowe
Perhaps "dead" doesn't exactly mean the absence of any life whatsoever, but merely (as I contend) separated -- soul from body or soul and spirit from God.

There's some interpretation of the Final Judgement that this is the case (everlasting life, i.e., with God)

39 posted on 01/24/2004 1:57:37 PM PST by P.O.E. (Then sigh not so, But let them go, And be you blithe and bonny - Shakespeare)
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To: P.O.E.; xzins
My interpretation of hell is that man will get exactly what he wanted here on earth, i.e., life without God. Banished forever from the presence of God. No need for literal torture or torment. The torment and torture will be self inflicted by an eternity of regret. Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
40 posted on 01/24/2004 2:10:21 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o* &AAGG)
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