[thinktwice]

Dear sitetest;

There is ample evidence proving that the universe exists, but no-one knows how it started.

You think the universe was created, but your evidence comes from ancient tales. You don't know.

Where I focus on reality being that which exists, you focus on reality as being "created" or "uncreated" because you think a "creation" happened. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but you'll have to face the fact that yours is a religious philosophy based in ancient tales, mystical beliefs, dogma, etc.; and that, to me, is sad.

We exist in a real world; and I see as evil those philosophies having problems with reality.

[sitetest]

Dear thinktwice,

"There is ample evidence proving that the universe exists, but no-one knows how it started."

Very good. You got one right. ;-)

If it was not created by someone/something, then it is uncreated. And an uncreated reality exists.

If it was created, then something created it, and that thing or person or whatever may itself be uncreated. Or not.

Although, unless one is willing to posit an infinite regress of created entities, one would generally concede that ultimately one will stumble across something that is uncreated.

Nonetheless, if you wish to accept the illogical idea of an infinite regress of created entities, all that does is fail to prove that there is an uncreated reality.

It does not prove there is not one.

"Where I focus on reality being that which exists, you focus on reality as being 'created' or 'uncreated' because you think a 'creation' happened."

Actually, for the sake of the argument, I'm happy to concede there was no general "creation" of the universe, as it establishes, then, that the universe, taken as a whole, is uncreated. That the stuff which already existed (from all time or eternity?) which we take and mold into this and that, that the stuff of the universe is eternal, and is thus, uncreated.

I can work with that.

Because, that then establishes that there is an uncreated reality.

"Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but you'll have to face the fact that yours is a religious philosophy based in ancient tales,..."

Actually, I haven't proposed any sort of philosophy at all. I've merely pointed out the logical flaw in your trying to assign all of reality NECESSARILY to a created reality.

Though it is logically inconceivable that there is only a created reality, I'm happy to accept the possibility. But you have merely asserted this is so. That it is possible that this is the case doesn't make it the case. Wishing doesn't make it so.

It is possible (even logically persuasive - ask anyone here on this forum what they think) that there is such a thing as an uncreated reality. Not proven. Merely possible.

Thus, if God exists - and I haven't posited that He does - He does not, of necessity (and illogically), need to be a created entity. The possiblity of uncreated things exists, and thus God, should He be, could be such a thing.

Your error lies in thinking that because a thing is not proven, it isn't possible.

"We exist in a real world; and I see as evil those philosophies having problems with reality."

What you take as evil is merely that over which you have no control, is merely that of which you have no comprehension. You don't understand it, you can't master it, so you fear it. You fear it, so you think it's evil.

A common human problem. You're not alone.


sitetest