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To: polemikos; Invincibly Ignorant; Elsie
This is a problem that we have in discussions. One person asks a simple yes or no question and the other person refers them to some web site rather than giving a direct answer. I think I know what your answer is. I think you would answer "NO, salvation is only through the rituals and sacraments and authority of the Roman Catholic Church."

If that is what you believe, then fine, just tell me. But don't dodge questions because you are ashamed of the response or because you feel it might offend my sensibilites or someone else's sensibilities. Dodging the questions and referring people to outside sources in lieu of answering direct questions wastes both of our times and it wastes bandwidth and wastes the time of the lurkers.

I have asked you politely twice for a direct answer to my question. You have politely refused on two occasions to directly answer the question. I will therefore assume that you have no intention of directly answering the question, so I will not ask again.

Thanks.

Marlowe

809 posted on 01/25/2004 11:27:05 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o* &AAGG)
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To: P-Marlowe; polemikos
"I have asked you politely twice for a direct answer to my question. You have politely refused on two occasions to directly answer the question."

I believe the problem here, marlowe, is that you are asking for a simple "yes" or "no" answer to a question which does not lend itself to a simple answer. Specifically, you are asking a complex question and demanding a simple answer. Moreover, you have already indicated why you are doing this.

It seems you wish to set up a straw man and then knock it down. If polemikos answers, "no, it is not possible to be saved outside the Church" you will come back with, "ah, then you believe all we Protestants will be going to hell." Certainly, a straw man you would love to use to knock the Church.

If polemikos says "yes, it is possible to be saved outside the Church," then you have already indicated you will use this to argue it really doesn't matter to which church one belongs.

Hence, your frustration when he doesn't grab the bait and, hence, your bluster about an 'unwillingness' to answer a direct question when polemikos directs you to a website offering the Catholic position supported with the writings of the Early Church Fathers on this subject.

Basically, the Catholic position is that 'yes' it is possible to be saved outside the Church provided one is invincibly ignorant. To wit: they have not been brought to a saving knowledge of the necessity of belief in Christ and, hence, the Body of Christ.

The situation becomes even more complex when discussing this with our Protestant brothers and sisters. We believe your baptism brings you into the Mystical Body of Christ which is the Church. Due to historical circumstances, we recognize you are not in full communion with the Church. Moreover, we recognize, again through historical circumstances, that many of our Protestant brethren -through no fault of their own- remain ignorant about the necessity of coming to know Jesus in the Sacrament of the Eucharist and coming to experience the healing power found in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Thus, we hold out the hope, the possibility, that Our Lord, in His Infinite Mercy, will spare you come the Day of Judgement and, that, you will, therefore, be saved.

851 posted on 01/25/2004 1:32:20 PM PST by AlguyA
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To: P-Marlowe
One person asks a simple yes or no question and the other person refers them to some web site rather than giving a direct answer. I think I know what your answer is. I think you would answer "NO, salvation is only through the rituals and sacraments and authority of the Roman Catholic Church."

Really, this is quite amusing. You asked a yes/no question, but as I tried (and apparently failed) to indicate, it is not a yes/no answer. I pointed you to another document because it gives a fuller answer for those interested in the truth.

Let me try a different tack.
Would you knowingly and deliberately reject divinely-revealed doctrine? If so, then the answer is probably "No", you cannot be saved outside the Catholic Church (or even inside for that matter).

What if you unknowingly or accidentally reject divinely-revealed doctrine? If so, then the answer is probably "Yes", you can be saved outside the Catholic Church.

If you seek the Truth, and do not turn away from it, then all will be well.
866 posted on 01/25/2004 2:11:34 PM PST by polemikos ("To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant" - John Henry Newman)
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