GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS (Don't Say You Weren't Warned)

Self | 1-22-04 | Sidebar Moderator

[Sidebar Moderator]

GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS
(Don't Say You Weren't Warned)

The bad news is that I am the newly designated moderator of Free Republic's Religion Forum. The good news is that I am the newly designated moderator of Free Republic's Religion Forum.

First, let's discuss why this is bad news.

I have no doubt that everyone who participates in this forum is aware of the general posting guidelines of Free Republic; they've been in effect as long as Free Republic has been in existence. Just for clarity, here they are again: "NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts."

Having spent the better part of a week reading as much as I was able to get to on the Religion Forum, which includes virtually every currently posted thread, I can say that I've seen no profanity (should be a given on a forum devoted to religion), and only one or two posts which could be construed to contain violence. On that score I commend you all.

Unfortunately, however, personal attacks are rampant. Protestants attack Catholics, and vice versa. Within these two major Christian families, Calvinists attack Arminians, and tit-for-tat. Traditional Catholics attack New Age Catholics, and back it comes. Self-professed Christians of all flavors post gratuitous insults and jibes directed toward Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses frequently. Threads are posted for the obvious and sole purpose of flaming "the opposition", whoever that might be in any particular instance. I could go on and on with further examples, but from many of your posted comments it is clear that all of you are aware of these facts, and seemingly, accept them as the order of things.

It is not the order of things, and it will no longer be tolerated.

Sadly, a forum devoted to perhaps the highest endeavor of the human mind and soul, that of the religious expression of faith, has become an embarrassment to Free Republic. All too often the discourse appearing in the Religion Forum resembles that found in those threads devoted to the War on Drugs, less the profanity, of course. Consequently, the question whether the Religion Forum will remain much longer as a feature of Free Republic, at least in its present format, is very much up in the air. How that question is answered depends entirely on the response each and every one of you make to this announcement in the next few weeks.

Therefore, from this time forward, the Free Republic rule of " NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.", will be more strictly enforced. Furthermore, you are all reminded that this is a religion forum; that is, all practitioners of any recognized religion, provided they also follow the rules, are welcome. However, since a large majority of posters to this forum are self-professing Christians, of one flavor or another, some additional rules will be imposed. You should all be quite familiar with them, even though some of you seem to pay them no heed at present.

These rules are:

"The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'." [Mark 12:31 (RSV)]

"But I say to you that hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you." [Luke 6:27 (RSV)]

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." [John 13:34 (RSV)]

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." [John 14:15 (RSV)]

Or, if the commandments of our Lord Jesus are insufficient (paraphrasing Paul) speak the truth in love.

For now, enough of the harsh words. There really is good news.

First and foremost, all that has passed prior to today is forgiven. However, my forgiveness, unlike that of God, is continuing but not unlimited. After all, I'm a sinner, too. Transgressions of the rules will be met with three warnings, followed by three progressively lengthy suspensions, after which unrepentant posters will be, shall we say, cast into the outer darkness. Totally outrageous violations, of course, remain subject to the ultimate penalty immediately, as always.

However, I am also aware that love, in the Biblical sense, is not the Hollywood kind of love we hear about all around us these days. Spirited debate is a hallmark of Free Republic, and is welcome. Sometimes the truth (at least as we understand it, through a glass darkly) sounds rather harsh, but even harsh truth can be couched in terms that allow the Christian love of the speaker to come through.

Further, no matter how you read the tenor of this announcement, I am not a martinet. I can be persuaded to change my mind by reasoned discourse. On the other hand, sinful nature that I have, I do not suffer fools gladly. Directing complaints to me over some action I have taken is fine; doing so with insulting language will not achieve the results you desire, and in fact, will probably result in something far worse. And, as always, I am not the ultimate authority regarding any decision I make; anything I do can be appealed to one higher court - Jim Robinson, by whose direction I am here as moderator.

There are some things I will not do. I will not arbitrate theological disputes. I will not resolve questions of church polity. Nor will I render judgment on interpretations of Scripture. Those are all issues for legitimate debate, and I do not propose to take part as just another poster on this forum. Naturally, I have my own opinions on all these issues, but my opinions are my own and I will keep them to myself.

You should also know, I suppose, that I was selected as the moderator of the Religion Forum because no one else wanted to wade into the mess that this forum has become. All too often when abuse reports come into the moderators from the Religion Forum it is discovered that there are no clean hands in the dispute under complaint. More often than not removing the post complained about generates another abuse report asking "why was I punished when he said thus-and-so first". In many cases, removing all of the offending posts makes the thread unreadable. So, whatever you think of me now, or come to think of me in the next few weeks, I'm your last chance. After me comes the abyss.

And do yourself a favor; before you respond to this announcement remember the immortal advice of Jim Croce:

'You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim'

I'm not Jim, but I've got his ear.

One final word. I am not here 24/7. I actually have a life away from Free Republic; consequently your questions/complaints/comments may not be answered immediately. Be patient, they will be answered eventually. In the end, my goal is (our goal should be) that there will come the day when my presence here is unnoticed. That should be attainable if we all act like the Christian brothers and sisters we claim to be.

May God bless you all.

[drstevej]

***oops, editing needed***

The Sagacity Prayer

GOD, grant ye mod the sagacity to discern the things should remain,

Insight to zap the things I should, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[polemikos]

I could say that you have no idea whereof you speak.

You could, but it would be wrong. (Say, does threatening to use personal invective constitute abuse?)

World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd Ed., 2001), published by Oxford University Press, lists 33,830 denominations within Christianity. Subtract the Catholic Church and the Eastern churches, and you are left with about 33,800 other churches, those descended from the Protestant Reformation. I rounded down to 30,000 because I thought the resulting comparison with 29,999 was simpler to comprehend. (Say, is that arithmetic abuse?)

[CARepubGal]

Jim:

I pinged several gentlemen who are much better equipped to answer you (all my answers are packed in a box and I would prefer this to be a new thread. :-)

[A.J.Armitage]

Regarding the Athanasian creed, Nicene creed, the Westminster Confession, Heidelburg Confession, Chalcedonian creed, etc., I had only heard of a few by name. A few minutes' perusal (ain't the internet better than sliced bread and canned beer?) shows me they all differ from each other, yet all have similarities. The fact is that the Mormon "creed" has much in common with them.

Tell me a doctrinal difference between the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds.

As for Mormon doctrines, have you ever read the King Follett Discourse?

[xzins]

There is no record in the bible of any angel named moroni.

[xzins]

There is no record in the bible of any angel named moroni.

This should be a separate thread and isn't appropriate for this information thread about new guidelines in the religion forum.

[P-Marlowe]

I would agree that personal attacks against posters and freepers should not be tolerated. Also "false" allegations against freepers and posters should not be tolerated as well. But if we are going to have free and open and cordial discussions of religion, then allegations (whether true or false) against religious leaders and allegations (whether true or false) about what certain religions teach or have taught in the past, should not be considered as violative of the spirit of the religion forum or of the general posting rules on FR provided they are done to further discussion and ultimately seek the truth rather than to ridicule or berate any particular poster's beliefs.

Some religious practices and doctrines and histories are just plain unorthodox. People should be allowed to point those things out and not fear that merely raising the issue is going to get them banned.

As everyone knows I attend Calvary Chapel and their peculiar doctrines and practices are considered by some as "cultic". I have no problem defending their practices, and I would not cry foul if someone were to point out the human flaws in any of its leaders or to question the orthodoxy of any of its beliefs or practices. That would give me a chance to get an objective view of the church from people who are not a part of it and also give me the opportunity to defend the beliefs, practices and personal quirks of the church and its leaders.

Unfortunately a lot of people see criticisms of peculiar doctrines or questions regarding the personal histories of the church leaders as personal attacks on them.

I would hope that you would agree that personal attacks against freeper are unwarranted, but questioning the validity of specific doctrines and church history and politics is legitimate in order to further the purpose of a free and open discussion of all things religious.

Would you not agree?

[CARepubGal]

Actually, I have done this as have plenty of folks: wrote down something (misspelled or out of context, gone off to have a life (I do really really have one!) :-) and come back to read what I wrote and realized it was completely out of context and conveyed a wrong message. The options at that point are: hit abuse and ask a Mod to pull the post; post a reply explaining post #1 or let it go and just allow the flame wars. Option 4 which is the "oops" which would (generally) show the post was edited is by far a less painful outcome for everyone involved. :-)

[A.J.Armitage]

World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd Ed., 2001), published by Oxford University Press, lists 33,830 denominations within Christianity. Subtract the Catholic Church and the Eastern churches, and you are left with about 33,800 other churches, those descended from the Protestant Reformation. I rounded down to 30,000 because I thought the resulting comparison with 29,999 was simpler to comprehend. (Say, is that arithmetic abuse?)

And how does it define denomination?

[CARepubGal]

LOLOL! Dean is seriously nuts! That deserves a whole lot of ridicule (as does the "I left the ECUSA over a Bike Path) IMO. :-) And mocking liberals is still ok (I think) ;-)

[polemikos]

And how does it define denomination?

In a traditional Protestant way?

[CARepubGal]

The use of bandwidth would be an issue I think. :-) Seeing "edited" next to a post should be enough and FRMailing the author would solve the issue you mention (in almost all cases)..

[drstevej]

traditional Protestant -- oxymoron ???

[polemikos]

traditional Protestant -- oxymoron ???

Good catch. I thought about using that but was sore afraid!

[A.J.Armitage]

In a traditional Protestant way?

Not even close.

The original source, as you can see here, was the first edition of the work you cited. And, as you can also see at the link, they did not use the "traditional Protestant way" (whatever that is), or any way you'd use in ordinary conversation. The second edition obvious uses the same definition (unless you've got evidence that 19 denominations, in the ordinary sense of the term, suddenly jumped to 30,000).

This is actually a side issue. By your answer, you proved that if you read it at all, you saw the number and ignored the context, trusting your own guesswork for the rest.

[polemikos]

The second edition obvious uses the same definition (unless you've got evidence that 19 denominations, in the ordinary sense of the term, suddenly jumped to 30,000).

Now who's jumping to conclusions without having read the source material? ;-)

This is actually a side issue.

Agreed. It is about my tagline above, afterall.

they did not use . . . [a definition] you'd use in ordinary conversation

Ulp. Putting words in my mouth?

By your answer, you proved that if you read it at all, you saw the number and ignored the context, trusting your own guesswork for the rest.

There's a leap!

The "analysis" you linked contains one or more critical flaws. A key one to me is the nature of the centralized theology of Catholicism versus the individual theology of Protestantism. The methodolgy employed by Barrett and Johnson certainly makes more sense in examining Protestantism rather than Catholicism.

So even if we were to arbitrarily throw out 90% of the Protestant denominations as "without distinction", that still leaves 3,000 denominations. (3,001 per Barnacle.) And my point about only one being possibly valid still stands, regardless of the final count, no?