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To: Claud
Sorry...couldn't find the ref. I checked Strong's and the only other use of "key" in the NT is in Luke and Revelations. No mention about Paul or any other apostle getting them.

The keys are of the kingdom of heaven. They symbolize the act of opening heaven to Israel, then to the Gentiles. Christ opened the door in both cases; but, he did so through Peter to the Israelites and through Paul with the Gentiles. This is the whole point you guys want to make - that Peter started it all. He actually didn't. He started one part of the equation and Paul finished it but only through Christ as Christ himself says that he is the one who opens and no one may shut, and the one who shuts and no one may again open.

You miss, as is a running theme, the forest for the trees. It's the same thing with binding and loosing. It is and was the spiritual position of interpreting doctrine.. not creating doctrine but interpreting it. Any Rabbi of the jewish faith can tell you guys this; but, alas you didn't consult them before redefining it. Alas, as Christ said just prior to the 16:18 statements, beware the leaven of the pharisees and the sadducees.

That's right, the other Apostles had it as well in Matt 18: which, by the way, is clearly plural: you would bind "desete", you would loose "lusete". I find it interesting that this power is given to Peter singly, and then all the apostles collectively--and you'll find this same idea preserved in the close relationship still preserved in the Church between Peter's successor and the bishops via Church councils.

See above. Binding and loosing does not allow the creation of doctrine from whole cloth. And tho Christ initially warned the Apostles to obey those who sat in the seat of Moses (the civil law), he later warned them prior to the passage at Matthew 16:18 to gaurd against their doctrine. In other words, there is no requirement to follow false doctrine, no matter the office from whence it flows. This isn't the military where you can just say "I was obeying orders" and get off. Having the scriptures and the ability to read them, and given you're supposed to have the mind of christ and the holy spirit that you can understand scripture, if you fail and stand before God, you are the one being judged, not the false teacher. And Christ said that God's words, His testimony from God, will judge in the end, not church doctrine. If doctrine is in error, it is not to be followed. So who decides that? the erroneous teacher spouting it or the people hearing it and comparing it to the message of the apostles. The latter was the charge of Christ and the Apostles over and over again. That also is not so with Rome. See, surface appearances aren't always what they seem, are they.

LOL...I CERTAINLY didn't pick this stuff up in Catholic school. What if it was just "me and my Bible"--searching the Scriptures. There couldn't be anything wrong with THAT approach could there? ;)

Well, see, scripture is kinda funny, it was originally given largely in parables by Christ where our NT is concerned. This served two purposes - to confound the Carnal minded by letting them latch onto the outward metaphor while losing the inner spiritual message. And second, allowing the spiritually minded - those who are actually born again - see through the facade to the truth. Thus some read and understand one thing, and others read and understand something else - just as the pharisees and saducees grumbled and grasped at straws. The spiritually minded then are easily told apart from the carnally minded by their understanding and right division of truth from metaphor. Spirituality is niether carnal piety nor outward appearances. Thus still today you have people offended at the audacity of those claiming to know scripture and what it means when they themselves find it difficult to understand and have been told they can't and should not try lest they find themselves in error for not being spoonfed by someone else saying "trust us - or else".

Things aren't what they always seem. There are many who suit up in the sheep's clothes, intermingle and pretend to be sheep. When they create rules of their own, and change clothes to pretend at being shepherd, they are no less wolves. And the way to tell them apart from the sheep is to know what the Apostles taught and reject anything that doesn't line up with that. Their message is that which God gave them through Christ. The only way one can know what they taught is to read what they put in writing. It's the only thing one can be sure about in the end - if they wrote it or had it written, it's tied directly to them. Any one can say "so and so said thus". The only way to get past charges of charlotanism is to make that sort of hearsay seem important rather than dubious. Brilliant if you're a scam artist. Not so brilliant when someone sees it for what it is. Thus, we stick, as Christians to what the scriptures say - not to what people playing games would like to make them say. Thus, 'And I say to you that you are a stone, and/but, on this the bedrock, I will build of me my church, and the Gates of Hell shall not overcome it.' The bedrock being the confession - on which the church is built of and by Christ. It's all about Christ - not Peter. And that is the importance of the passage and of the chapter and book surrounding it. The stumbling block laid in Sion yet trips those on earth seeking to hide the truth in carnal pursuits - either willfully or through ignorance. Night. God loves ya.

97 posted on 01/12/2004 8:43:53 PM PST by Havoc ("Alright; but, that only counts as one..")
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To: Havoc
once more... the magisterium does not invent revelation.
98 posted on 01/14/2004 2:16:55 PM PST by dangus
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