GREAT X-MAS POLL! What religion do you follow?

PHXnews ^ | 12/25/03 | PHXnews

[AZ Righty]

We already know how we feel about Bush, Gore, Hillary, Dean and the all of our worthless politicians, but how do you feel about God?

On PHXnews they are asking an interesting question this Christmas day. SHARE YOUR VIEWS BY VOTING.

POLL QUESTION: What religion do you follow?

Christian

New Age

Catholic

Mormon

Hare Krishna

Jewish

Islamic

Scientology

Sikh

Hindu

Siek

Atheist

Bahá'í

Buddhist

[sirchtruth]

Ok I'm right in the middle of looking at what I want to show you...give me about half an hour. But get on the Elohim
thing, that's important.

[sirchtruth]

We do not pray to Jesus. We pray to His Father in the name of Jesus.

I agree, but we could pray to Jesus.

Alpha Omega: Jesus refers to himself as so does Jehova..

[maui_hawaii]

Elohim as far as I know is a Hebrew word for "God".

As I explained earlier, it could apply to either Christ or His Father, depending on the context.

I couldn't tell you any more than that because I don't know.

[Semper]

(59%)Christian prooving, once again, that this is a Christian nation.

No. This proves that our nation, comprised of a majority of Christians at the present time, is a free nation of many religious faiths, with the opportunity to live in harmony.

[maui_hawaii]

Look up whatever you want. I have been here just watching TV and checking messages.

I am going to take off here for a while though.

Again, as far as I know, Elohim literally means "God" but doesn't make specific reference to The Father.

[Pahuanui]

Too bad Protestants have failed, as compared to Catholics, in bringing many souls to Jesus Christ.

Hey, I know it's Christmas, but have you considered laying off the hooch before posting?

[Az Joe]

Have you considered not having a big mouth?

[Semper]

Are you saying that as a Protestant you do not believe in Mary being the mother of God?

I am not Protestant but I don't understand how a human woman could be the mother of God, which is infinite, spiritual, and the Source of all Life. I do not wish to disrespect your belief but this does not make sense to me. I believe that Jesus brought the Christ to this world but I can not understand how a human woman is the mother (source) of God. I can understand how God was revealed by Jesus after he was born. But is Mary more significant than God?

I guess it comes down to the belief that Jesus was God which again does not make sense to me. How could God which is infinite and spiritual be confined to a human, material form? I can understand how Jesus was the Son of God. I can understand that Jesus was essential to lead us out of the illusion of life circumscribed by material form. It seems to me that believing that Jesus was God is like the idolatry of old. God is not material, God is spiritual. The material world is illusion and the spiritual world is reality. Jesus came to this material world to lead us to the spiritual world of God. Where is this wrong?

[sirchtruth]

Again, as far as I know, Elohim literally means "God" but doesn't make specific reference to The Father

When you read this bible, the english never does justice to the hebrew..."im" is a plural, but is a singular too...it is unique to hebrew and I'm not even sure if another word like it exist in a singular/dual meaning. It's like writing a sentence like this:I's is/are going to the store.

So you can't claim Jesus created and God didn't...when it's referring to both. (or all three)BUT the word is singular just as much it is plural.

Justify how the use of that word is Jesus alone doing the creating when "El" means God the father?

Immanu"el" - God with us.

"El" means God, the father. So if you take Genesis 1:1 It really reads like this in english:

In the beginning God's' (possesive and plural and singular) created heaven and earth...

You can dispute the meaning of the english, but you can not do that to this word in hebrew, it is unique and not used in any other context.

Now you have a dilema, because you believe that God and Jesus are not equal, but this unique word makes them no matter how you slice it in the hebrew.

Who purchased the church with his own blood?
Acts 20:28

[BibChr]

You know, I just KNEW someone had to say that. He can make a false claim, but I cannot simply state the antithesis.

But why you, MEG? Whyyyyyyyy?

Dan

[Pahuanui]

Have you considered not having a big mouth?

Yep, it's the alcohol talking, alrighty.

[sirchtruth]

His Father though, who is a different person is really THE God. Jesus has someone higher up to answer to.

You have a huge problem. And that is Jesus claimed to be "I AM" it doesn't get any higher than that! The reference in those times was specific to the ONE God of the Jews...There is no way around it. If someone claimed to be "I AM" they claimed to be the ONE, the ONLY GOD, and there was no other. The jews didn't pick up stones to stone him because he claimed to be the "Son of God," it was because he claimed to be GOD...Go look at some Jewish history of those times.

Your theology and your historical veiw are not in sync. You just can not say Jesus was Jehova and God was someone else because it does not jive with the Jews historical context of God in the old testement. Not even the Jews would say when God spoke to Moses, "it was really the messiah." It doesn't make sense spiritually or logically as a whole when you take into account all the history.

[sirchtruth]

Are you checking out this conversation I'm having with maui_hawaii?

Which is really where I want to be right now.

[maui_hawaii]

Justify how the use of that word is Jesus alone doing the creating when "El" means God the father?

I won't even try. Because thats not what Mormons believe in. Jesus wasn't alone. God the Father wasn't alone. There were more than just those two.

Your post is very interesting. I can't speak a word of Hebrew so I don't know.

Now you have a dilema, because you believe that God and Jesus are not equal, but this unique word makes them no matter how you slice it in the hebrew.

"...for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28

[NYer]

Catholics pray to Mary. Catholics pray to Saints. Catholics pray to dead people.

The phrase “praying to the saints” reflects this older usage, and it simply means “asking them for their prayers on our behalf.” Asking the saints to pray for us does not violate the unique mediatorship of Jesus any more than asking our friends to pray for us does. There is a sense in which all of us are called to be mediators. Think about it: When you pray for your friends, are you not going before God on their behalf? Do they not do the same for you? Is that not the very definition of “mediator”? In fact, the Bible verse where Paul tells us that there is “one mediator between God and man,” 1 Tim. 2:5, is in the context of intercessory prayer. Look at the four verses immediately preceding this one:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone – for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:1-5).

What does this mean? Simply that the only way we have access to God is through Christ. He alone bridges the gap between God and man. However, He invites us (indeed, commands us) to participate in His own mediation through our intercessory prayers. Thus, if we can act as mediators, in a secondary sense, it is only because we pray in the name of Christ, the one mediator between God and man.

Like all Christians, Catholics believe in intercessory prayer. They ask their friends to pray for them, just as Protestants do. But a Catholic’s prayer chain is a bit longer than most Protesants’ because it includes those believers who are in heaven. Remember, the saints in heaven are not dead. In fact, they are more alive than we are. As Jesus reminded the Sadducees, God is “not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32). We are all part of the Body of Christ, and that Body is not separated by death. God wants the whole Body of Christ, both in heaven and on earth, to intercede before Him. All Christians everywhere are to pray for one another. Put simply, if you can pray for me, then there’s no reason that St. Ignatius can’t pray for me too. And because the Bible tells us that “the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” (Jas. 5:16), and we know that believers in heaven, having been cleansed of all sin, are perfectly righteous, it follows that we should covet their prayers on our behalf.

In the book of Revelation, John was given a glimpse of heaven, and he saw that the saints in heaven do indeed offer our prayers to God:

[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)

If we look back in history, we find that the early Christians understood that their brothers and sisters who preceded them into heaven could pray for them:

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].1

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep.2

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy.3

This is why today all historic Christian groups, except Protestants, include the whole Body of Christ in their prayer requests, not just that part of the Body that is still on earth.

1 Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies, 7:12, A.D. 208.
2 Origen, Prayer, 11, A.D. 233.
3 Cyprian of Carthage, Letters, 56[60]:5, A.D. 253.

BTW, Catholics do pray directly to Jesus!

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list

[maui_hawaii]

I think you are reading what you want to read. The people of that day misinterpred things too.

John 5:17-19

Who is Jesus' Father?

Jesus claimed God was His Father. The Jews interpreted that as saying that Jesus said He was equal to God.

Jesus didn't say that. The Jews did.

So you are actually believing what the Jews thought of Jesus.

Again, see John 14:28

[MEG33]

I have seen everything but Christian love and understanding when Christianity is discussed on some threads.

I don't believe hearts will be changed and understanding advanced when that happens.

People leave the thread believing the same way.The only thing accomplished is anger,hurt,resentment and not the advancement of faith in Jesus Christ,the Savior.I am truly sorry I upset you.

[sirchtruth]

"...for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28

Jesus was the Son of God AND the Son of Man. God incarnate chose to lower himself to be a mere man...God can be everywhere at once so God the father lowered himself to be Jesus the man because only he can forgive sins and only he could be the Lamb Perfect...There is only one that can forgive sin, God the Father said that, yet Jesus did forgive sins and the Jews tried to stone him because, AGAIN they would stone someone for trying to make themselves out to be God, The father.

Who purchased the church with his own blood? Acts 20:28

[NYer]

Mainstream Christianity holds the Scriptures to be the highest authority we have. Roman Catholicism holds that both Scripture and the Church are the highest authority.

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.

This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.

[sirchtruth]

People leave the thread believing the same way.The only thing accomplished is anger,hurt,resentment and not the advancement of faith in Jesus Christ,the Savior.

As one who professess being a ChristOne, I can tell you I learn so much on these threads about hearts and minds and for the most part it is a good thing even from the atheist. Do you think Paul had these same feelings, you bet because 99% of the time he was being shunned and debated, yet he was diligent. I'm not saying cast pearls, but what I am saying is maybe all of us can learn something we can take with us...The whole world is against us this is not new, hearts do change...because God may chose you to work through.

Do not deny him the opportunity...