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To: FormerLib; CCWoody
"As you may have noted, the Orthodox Church does not believe in a physical transformation but in a real and mystical presence in the Eucharist."

I didn't know you were Orthodox. My apologies for the oversight.

However, you should be made aware that the reformational churches (both Lutheran and Reformed) also profess a belief in the "Real Presence" during the Lord's Supper.

""The Lord's Supper!" Yes, absent the real presence in the Eucharist, it is just like any other commemorative meal, isn't it?"

In the reformational churches, the Lord's Supper is not merely memorial:

...Now it is certain that Jesus Christ did not prescribe his sacraments for us in vain, since he works in us all he represents by these holy signs, although the manner in which he does it goes beyond our understanding and is uncomprehensible to us, just as the operation of God's Spirit is hidden and incomprehensible.

Yet we do not go wrong when we say that what is eaten is Christ's own natural body and what is drunk is his own blood-- but the manner in which we eat it is not by the mouth but by the Spirit, through faith.

In that way Jesus Christ remains always seated at the right hand of God the Father in heaven-- but he never refrains on that account to communicate himself to us through faith.

This banquet is a spiritual table at which Christ communicates himself to us with all his benefits. At that table he makes us enjoy himself as much as the merits of his suffering and death, as he nourishes, strengthens, and comforts our poor, desolate souls by the eating of his flesh, and relieves and renews them by the drinking of his blood...

from Article 35 of the Belgic Confession of 1561"

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Question 77. Where has Christ promised that he will as certainly feed and nourish believers with his body and bleed, as they eat of this broken bread, and drink of this cup?

Answer: In the institution of the supper, which is thus expressed: (a) "The Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and: said: eat, this is my body, which is broken for you; this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying: this cup is the new testament in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For, as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come." 1 Cor.11:23-26. This promise is repeated by the holy apostle Paul, where he says "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1 Cor.10:16,17.

(a) 1 Cor.11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 1 Cor.11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Cor.11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. Matt.26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. Matt.26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; Matt.26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. Mark 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 1 Cor.10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 1 Cor.10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

from Lord's Day 28 of the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563

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Question 79. Why then doth Christ call the bread "his body", and the cup "his blood", or "the new covenant in his blood"; and Paul the "communion of body and blood of Christ"?

Answer: Christ speaks thus, not without great reason, namely, not only thereby to teach us, that as bread and wine support this temporal life, so his crucified body and shed blood are the true meat and drink, whereby our souls are fed to eternal life; (a) but more especially by these visible signs and pledges to assure us, that we are as really partakers of his true body and blood by the operation of the Holy Ghost as we receive by the mouths of our bodies these holy signs in remembrance of him; (b) and that all his sufferings and obedience are as certainly ours, as if we had in our own persons suffered and made satisfaction for our sins to God.

(a) John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (b) 1 Cor.10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 1 Cor.10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

from Lord's Day 29 of the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563.

Your claim that the "Lord's Supper" is merely a memorial event is a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

We in the Reformed Churches refer to the "Lord's Supper" as a "Means of Grace". The Holy Spirit works in our hearts through participation in the Lord's Supper as he does through preaching of the Word.

Jean

358 posted on 12/04/2003 12:29:38 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (Sola Scriptura---Sola Fida---Sola Gracia---Sola Christus---Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Jean Chauvin
Your claim that the "Lord's Supper" is merely a memorial event is a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

No, it is not. For it to be that, you'd have to be able to prove that all churches that use that term (and they are all foreign to me) believe as you do. For you to do that would be impossible as I've debated with Protestants on this forum who have assured me that their "Lord's Supper" is nothing more than a symbolic memorial (It's JUST BREAD!). That the term is used widely is a good thing. When someone says the words "Holy Eucharist", I know where they are coming from (even if it doesn't mean they are in 100% agreement with me).

By the way, using labels such as "Red Herring Logical Fallacy" might be interesting to those who have studied their use but they are wholly without meaning the to the rest of us. To us, it seems that your intent is more on finding a way to apply the label than to actually deal with what is being said.

363 posted on 12/04/2003 1:50:12 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: FormerLib
Jean Chavin: I didn't know you were Orthodox. My apologies for the oversight.

Ditto for me as well, FL. I thought you were arguing the Catholic position.

372 posted on 12/04/2003 8:01:02 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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