To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Like I said, I think it's entirely plausible that 1st-Century Christians might have employed "Babylon" as a metaphor for Rome, it's just that it occurs to me that I've never seen any actual evidence that they did."
Although it was widely understood in tradition that Babylon was used for a metaphor of Rome, direct evidence is thin on the ground. According to my notes I have three references that attest to this:
"Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1)."
I have only been able to track down the actual text of the Sibylline oracles where clearly there is a connection:
"Hellas thrice wretched shall the poets weep,
When one from Italy shall smite the neck
Of the isthmus, mighty king of mighty Rome,
A man made equal to God, whom, they say,
190 Zeus himself and the august Hera bore
He, courting by his voice all-musical
Applause for his sweet Songs, shall put to death
With his own wretched mother many men.
From Babylon shall flee the fearful lord
195 And shameless whom all mortals and best men
Abhor; for he slew many and laid hands
Upon the womb; against his wives he sinned
And of men stained with blood had he been formed."
"215 The vasty deep, and Babylon itself,
And the land of Italy, because, of which
There perished many holy faithful men
Among the Hebrews and a people true."
However, this is more of an Ebionite source or a co-mingling of Judaism and Christianity, than it is an orthodox Christian source.
I believe the Book of Jubilees testifies to a semitic use of Babylon for Rome, but I do not have my text to check that one out.
I do agree with you, however, that John's use of Babylon the whore in his Apocalypse DEFINITELY relates to Jerusalem - for all the reasons you have posted and many more besides.
The synoptics all have a mini-apocalypse where Jesus clearly identifies the fall of Jerusalem as a pre-figurement of the END. John's gospel is conspicuous by the absence of these prophecies.
The reason his gospel doesn't have this testimony, however, is because his account is much longer, set in a different context, and needed to be written as a separate book - the Apocalypse. But the events it relates to are exactly the same as those covered by the synoptics.
Personally I think the Apocalypse was written between September AD 69 and March AD 70, but am prepared to be convinced of an earlier date if good reason is presented. ;)
I have not read Chilton's book, but have heard very favourable reviews of it from orthodox Catholic sources.
To: Tantumergo
Although it was widely understood in tradition that Babylon was used for a metaphor of Rome, direct evidence is thin on the ground. According to my notes I have three references that attest to this: "Sibylline Oracles (5:159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch (2:1), and 4 Esdras (3:1)."Here is your text for 4 Esdras 3. You'll note that it is marked "2 Esdras", but if you'll check the table of contents you'll note that this follows the Slavonic, which in your Vulgate would be -- 4 Esdras.
Scholars date 4 Esdras to approximately AD97, which means that the author's "In the thirtieth year after the destruction of the city, I was in Babylon" definitely refers to Rome. That gives us a 1st-Century Jew -- which isn't exactly the 1st-Century Christian reference we are seeking, although I'm told that Ambrose quotes from 4 Esdras a lot so that gives us at least a tangential connection.
I can't find "Apocalypse of Baruch", just "Baruch", which I presume is the same book... as Baruch 2 does talk about Babylon, and seems to be referring to Rome, assuming a date in the Maccabean period (which, I guess, is reasonable).
Obviously, the Sibylline Oracles is probably your best, clearly "Rome = Babylon" is blatantly obvious therein; and the conception of Messiah as a "Heavenly Joshua" (section 346-350) at least puts it in the philosophical vicinity of Christian theology, suggesting a possible connection.
You can mess with the Text of Jubilees if you like... since this somewhat-painfully formatted copy is the best I could find, I don't want to. ;-)
Personally I think the Apocalypse was written between September AD 69 and March AD 70, but am prepared to be convinced of an earlier date if good reason is presented. ;) I have not read Chilton's book, but have heard very favourable reviews of it from orthodox Catholic sources.
IMHO, John was (first) exiled to Patmos in AD64, and wrote the Revelation prior to the onset of the Jewish Wars in AD66 -- after all, the reason that the Beast of the Seven Heads and Ten Horns "hates the harlot" is that in AD66, the Zealots interrupted the Temple Scarifices for the Emperor in Jerusalem (as noted in prior posts, this was the single most-important event which brought the legions of Vespasian and Titus to make war on Jerusalem).
So, with an early date of AD64 and a late date of AD66, I put John's Apocalypse in AD65, just about a year before the "time, times, and half a time" of the three-and-a-half year Jewish Wars.
372 posted on
11/26/2003 7:21:07 PM PST by
OrthodoxPresbyterian
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