In John does not say "a great city" or "another great city"; John uses the definite article "THE Great City" (Revelation 16:19) referring us directly back to THE only Great City which he has previously referenced in the Text -- THE Great City where the Lord Jesus was Crucified (Revelation 11:8). So let me ask you this -- if you lay aside attempts to see Rome as "Babylon" which are external to the Text, where in the Text of Revelation 16:19 itself does John ever indicate that he is now talking about a different The Great City other than THE Great City which he has already established as Jerusalem?
Remember, stick to the Text itself.
Furthermore, if you believe that the reference to sitting on seven mountains in Revelation 17:9 must be taken as a reference to a literal, geographic seating on seven mountains, then as the Roman Catholic APOLOGIA website demonstratesyou have just proven the case that THE Great City is exactly THE Great City which John has already identified to his readers: Jerusalem, which in Jesus day rested upon the Seven Mountains.
Jerusalem, however, is built on seven mountains: Mount Goath, Mount Gareb, Mount Acra, Mount Bezetha, Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, and Mount Moriah. There are even Psalms about them, "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever." {Psalms 125:2)
Again, Jerusalem was a city of a around ten of thousand (the walls then were actually smaller than today, since the area of the Church of the Anastasis, where Christ was crucified and buried was outside the walls) . It was the city of Rome and its suffragans for which traders brought goods, not Jerusalem. I'll await your explanation of how the economics of the Jerusalem trade, and not the Roman trade were what made the traders rich.
Tsk, tsk, tsk Hermann, youre just being silly again. In the first place, I never said that the Roman trade did not make traders rich; I am simply pointing out that, as John writes in Revelation, the Harlot City Jerusalem was a Great City of almost indescribable wealth and did make traders rich, herself. This is well-attested by both Edersheim and Josephus, above.
After all, Jerusalem was not a city of ten thousand; it was a city of at least 250,000, which during Passover quadrupled to over one million. Tacitus himself records a population of at least 600,000 in the city of Jerusalem at the time (AD66 AD70) the Roman Beast laid siege to the Harlot Great City; Josephus figures are even higher. And just where, pray tell, did Titus find 1.1 million Jews to kill during the Jewish Wars and another 97,000 to enslave if the Great City Jerusalem was a jerkwater burg of only 10,000? Your descent into absurdity is becoming downright humorous now youve got the Roman Senate building the great Arch of Titus and celebrating the plunder of incalculable riches from what you claim to be a bump-in-the-road cow-town. This is not only terrible theology, its just plain bad math.
Hilarious!! Go on, tell us another one.
First, the Huns aren't German. Second, the Huns affected little of the Roman Empire and only for a short period. Third, there were ten major German tribal confederations that descended upon Rome.
Really? I count more like Fifty-six tribes or so. Of course, its a fortunate convenience for you that there are so many German tribes with 56 to choose from, you can mix and match them any way you please to come up with ten confederations.
Unfortunately, you can mix and match Germanic tribes any way you please, but your bad math still wont salvage your bad theology. The Ten Horns are integral parts of the Beast (which we have already identified with the Roman Empire and specifically the Revelation 17:10 Seven Kings from Julius Caesar to Galba Caesar) and give their power and strength unto the beast. So we must identify the Ten Horns as ten powers which give their power and strength to the Caesars.
There were never ten imperial Roman provinces (there were many more), nor ten kings of these provinces, nor were they of one mind, nor did they hate either Rome or Jerusalem, nor did the provinces ever sack Rome or Jerusalem.
As noted above, F.W. Farrar, Chaplain to Queen Victoria, Headmaster of Marlborough College and Canon of Westminster Abbey in his The Early Days of Christianity, identified ten principal provinces of the Roman Empire: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Germany. These would be the Ten Horns which give power and strength to the Caesars (they neednt conform to exact administrative divisions, if they represent the ten primary regions from which the peoples of the Empire would have identified themselves).
However, within the interpretive rule that we must identify the Ten Horns as ten powers which give their power and strength to the Caesars, there we can identify ten powers which had received no kingdom yet but receive power as kings one hour with the beast and give their power and strength unto the beast. While, in terms of administrative divisions, there were a varied number of Imperial Provinces, as a rule, there were always Ten Senatorial Provinces . Now under Nero (especially after AD62) the law of Maiestas was used to control and subvert the power of the Senate and aristocracy. However, under the imperium of Galba (who continued for a short space during the Jewish Wars) and also Vespasian and Titus (the two generals most responsible for the desolation of Jerusalem, and who later came to power as Emperors) the privileges of the Senate were respected for a short time. The senators, whose power was subverted when John wrote Revelation, received power under the short reign of the Seventh Head of the Beast (Galba) to whom they gave their power and strength, and celebrated the desolation of Jerusalem by crowning honors and glory upon Vespasian and Titus.
Two serves you won't answer: "And the woman which thou sawest is the great city which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17.18) Jerusalem never ruled the earth, Rome did. You can't address or refute this point. - ACE!
Already did. As I said before, you are confusing the political power of the Beast of Seven Hills (Rome) with the religious power of the Harlot Great City (Jerusalem).
It was the Harlot City Jerusalem, and her servants the Apostate Elders of False Judaism (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) and their Synagogues of Satan, who at all times everywhere throughout the Empire stirred up the peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues against the Saints of Jesus Christ.; and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Game, set, match OP.
Yup. Game, Set, Match: OP!!
Lets Review: (Next Post)
The Great City Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8) which crucified the Lord.
Mystical Babylon -- the Old Covenant bride of God who had made of herself a filthy, blood-drunken Whore: Jerusalem
Sure he distinguishes them. We have "the great city, which has the symbolic names 'Sodom' and 'Egypt,' where indeed their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11.8) and "They will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her, and they will say: 'Alas, alas, great city, Babylon, mighty city. In one hour your judgment has come.'" (Rev. 18.10)
Are Sodom and Egypt equivalent to Babylon? Why not stick with the same metaphor's if referring to the same place?
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
I think the blasphemies are 'false doctrine'. Changing the Sabbath to Sun-day, in honor of the 'venerable day of the sun', changes God's Law regarding the 4th Commandment.
The biblical calendar has been around since the beginning. It was given to all mankind. The Babylonians used it. When the exile ended the Jews brought it with them. This is why the Jewish calendar has Babylonian names for the months. But, the papacy changed all that with the introduction of the Julian calendar, which was later revised and became the Gregorian calendar. Under the Gregorian calendar, the New Year is changed and is no longer in the spring as God commanded. Passover was changed to Easter and of course the Sabbath was changed to SUN day. That, along with starting the "day" at midnight, made their "change of times and seasons" complete.
Exodus 12
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
This was commanded by God to Moses at the time of the Passover, which always comes in spring.
In accordance with its ancient beginnings (right from The Seven Days Of Creation when light was created after the darkness), Bible calendar days were, and are, determined to begin and end at sunset e.g "from evening to evening shall you keep your sabbath" (Leviticus 23:32 )
(Book of Genesis)
Chapter 1
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(Book of Leviticus) Chapter 23
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
The Popes/RCC have fulfilled Daniel 7:25, the 4th beast of verse 23.
Look at any history atlas, and you can find the ten German kingdoms that destroyed Old Rome and the West, and the provinces they took over. Again, 1) Saxons (Britain), 2) Franks (Gallia, Germania Inferior), 3) Burgundians (Narbonensis, Germania Superior), 4) Bavarians (Noricum), 5) Lombards [Langobards] (Pannonia), 6) Ostrogoths (Italia, Illyricum), 7) Visigoths (Hispania), 8) Suevians (NW Hispania), 9) Vandals (Africa, Numidia, Sardinia, Corsica, Mauretania), 10) Allemannians [Lothringians] (Germania Superior).
However, within the interpretive rule that we must identify the Ten Horns as ten powers which give their power and strength to the Caesars, there we can identify ten powers which had received no kingdom yet but receive power as kings one hour with the beast and give their power and strength unto the beast. While, in terms of administrative divisions, there were a varied number of Imperial Provinces, as a rule, there were always Ten Senatorial Provinces .
I'm afraid you are wrong in what you are talking about. Here is a list of Senatorial provinces at that time:
1) Italia, 2) Sicilia, 3) Narbonensis, 4) Baeltica, 5) Numidia, 6) Africa, 7) Cyrenaica, 8) Creta, 9) Achaia, 10) Macedonia, 11) Noricum, 12) Asia, 13) Bithynia and Pontus, 14) Cyprus. ("Der grosse Atlas Welt-geschichte", pp. 34-35, Orbis-Verlag)
Please let me know whan you determine which four of these were not really Senatorial provinces.
However, under the imperium of Galba (who continued for a short space during the Jewish Wars) and also Vespasian and Titus (the two generals most responsible for the desolation of Jerusalem, and who later came to power as Emperors) the privileges of the Senate were respected for a short time.
Galba (and Otho and Vitellius) was not a real Emperor of the Romans. The Emperor who continued for a short space was Titus (AD 79-81). The book was written in the reign of Vespasian (AD 69-79). Thus "five have fallen" is Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero (Julius Caesar was not an Emperor, and did not rule a Roman Empire). "One is" is Vespasian, in whose time the book would appear to have been written (supporting Tantumergo's claim of AD 69-70). The future eighth is Domitian, who in his cruelty and bestiality, was considered a reincarnation of Nero.