Posted on 11/22/2003 12:52:52 PM PST by Destro
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:25:29 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
A new study by a joint Catholic-Orthodox panel has reached agreement on a single Latin word, filioque, that has played a major part in the centuries-old rift between Eastern and Western Christianity.
Filioque, which means "and the son," was added by Roman Catholics, without consulting their Orthodox brethren, to the Nicene Creed, altering the Fourth Century statement that says the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father" to "proceeds from the Father and the Son."
(Excerpt) Read more at toledoblade.com ...
The Church formulated the Nicene Creed before it selected certain apostolic writings, called them the New Testament, and declared them to be Holy Scripture. Another way of looking at it is that God chose the people who were bound by the Nicene Creed to affirm the contents of the New Testament, thereby endorsing the theology of the creed. The Nicene Creed is therefore a reliable test of our interpretation of the New Testament. If we are at variance with the Nicene Creed, we are in error. So whoever denies the Trinity must also deny the New Testament, and whoever upholds the New Testament as Holy Scripture must also affirm the Trinity.
In the beginning, the Church did not have a formal creed, nor did it have a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Then it formulated the Nicene Creed to express its doctrines and to serve as a test of orthodox teaching. So for a while there was a Church with the Nicene Creed but, even though it used the books of the New Testament as Holy Scripture, it had no official statement saying that they were. After the Church was bound by the Nicene Creed, it made a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Therefore, whoever attempts to reconstruct the ancient Church with an official list of New Testament books but without the Nicene Creed is reconstructing an imaginary church that never existed. This doesn’t mean their church is invalid, it just means that it isn’t a historic reconstruction, because in any part of Church history in which there was an official list of New Testament books, the Nicene Creed was the official expression of faith and the final test of orthodoxy.
Correct, and I have no intention of denying that. Perhaps Pilarczyk should consider converting to Orthodoxy?
The next topic will be papal primacy and infallibility, he said, adding: "Wish us luck."
I can hardly wait.
If the Eastern and Western churches can agree on a common creed, it would be an important step toward ending the 1,000-year-old split, the metropolitan said. >/i>
Has anyone explored the writings of St. Augustine to see just how this became an issue? Very interesting!
But do you understand what you are saying when you say it? In what way does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son?
That is why the Ecumenical Councils were held and the Creed adopted so that anyone's individuals beliefs would not contaminate the teachings of the Church.
It is not up to you to pick and chose what you believe but to accept the teachings of the church as presented.
"If we are at variance with the Nicene Creed, we are in error."
If that is understood, then the words "and the Son" are superfluous, are they not?
The Holy Spirit is also God; does He proceed from Himself? Why not? You are saying the quality which makes Him proceed from the Son is the deity of the Son. Does the Son proceed from the Father and the Holy Spirit, since they are both God? Again, why not if no? Are you saying the processions orginate in the common essence? Does the Father proceed from the Son and the Holy Spirit for the same reason?
You are going to have to be a bit more clear.
Your statement implies that the removals that occurred between the Nicene Creed and the Creed of Constantinople constituted a "change in belief" for Catholics. I will note the phrases removed below:
After "the only begotten born of the Father" delete: "that is of the substance of the Father, God of God"
After "by whom all things were made" delete the words: "which are in heaven and on earth"
Similarly, your statement implies that additions also constitute a change in Faith for Catholics (in which case the Filioque definitely comes in for condemnation as "another Gospel").
It would be tantamount to denying the divinity of Christ (for us).
The divinity of Christ is quite safe with the phrase "one in being with the Father".
Canon law tells us that the highest decision making body of the Church is an Oecumenical Council. There is no way that any council is ever going to revise the Creed. Additionally, there are also canons that state a presiding hierarch must submit to his synod...that they must act as one.
He would even have to give up CONTROL of all his "subjects" in all lands around the world.
Not going to happen.
The Pope would NEVER give up his power and be an equal to let's say.... the Patriarch of Serbia, Albania, Georgia or Romania... or even....Russia.
The Pope wants it ALL!! Always have and always will. I would bet my ranch on that.
First among equals title belongs to the Patriarch of Constantinople.
The Roman Pope will never go for that.
And, you as an Orthodox Christian, know THEY never change certainly to not to benefit a Pope who KISSES A KORAN.
And, then there are the married Orthodox Christian Priests with their children.... the list of problem areas is endless.
And, I almost hate to mention the other Roman problems.....evil/jailbird pedophile priests, the clown masses, liberal politics(Jesuits) and dancing altar girls.
Let's just say.... You Orthodox are really better off on your own. WHY BORROW TROUBLE?
Actually, that wouldn't be a problem for the Roman Catholics. The various "Eastern Rite" Catholics permit married priests and the Roman Catholic Church has received married priests from the Anglican and Lutheran Churches on occasion (they serve parishes as do any other priests).
Let's just say...You Orthodox are really better off on your own.
Anytime the concept of taking on additional "troubles" arises, my priest always smiles and mutters an old Serbian proverb roughly translating to "There once was an old woman without enough trouble in her life so she went and got a pig."
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