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To: Pyro7480
Sorry, I can't buy any of this. Catholics make this enormous stretch to try to justify Lord of the Rings while condemning Harry Potter.

Let's take just one issue: there is no God in the books. No mention ever of a supreme being, no reference even to life after death. What happens to these characters when they die? From a truly Catholic perspective, that is the only issue that really matters. Yet LoR ignores it entirely, even though basic consistency of plot would require some explanation of what happens to elves when they die as opposed to living forever.
7 posted on 11/06/2003 8:32:32 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
Actually, a great deal of time is spent examining this issue in the appendices of Return of the King and especially in the Silmarillion. Someone else here will certainly be better equipped than I to explain Tolkien's lone god Iluvatar, the angelic Valar and Maiar, the fallen Vala Morgoth and his role as the Great Adversary, and the fate of Elves and Men.

With the possible exception of the Elves, his cosmology is quite Catholic.

8 posted on 11/06/2003 8:47:00 AM PST by jboot (Faith is not a work; swarming, however, is.)
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To: Maximilian
Let's take just one issue: there is no God in the books.

I disagree. This is being like the Jews and Protestants who discarded a few books from the Old Testament because of they were no longer useful. If you read the Simirilion, Tolkien's account of what happened in Middle Earth in its First and Second Ages, there is DEFINITELY a God active in the story. His name is Iluvatar, or Eru, "the One." In fact, Gandalf, in his confrontation with Balrog in the Mines of Moria, refers to himself as "the Servant of the Secret Fire." The Secret Fire is the Holy Spirit, according to Tolkien.

Tolkien himself responed defensively in an interview in 1968 to this charge. "Of course God is in The Lord of the Rings. The period was pre-Christian, but it was a monotheistic world." When the interviewers asked him who the God in the trilogy was, Tolkien said: "The one, of course! The book is about the world that God created - the actual world of this planet." Please read the third chapter of Bradley Birzers' book, J.R.R. Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth before repeating such a statement.

10 posted on 11/06/2003 8:49:03 AM PST by Pyro7480 (“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Maximilian; RosieCotton; SuziQ; ksen; xzins
Catholics make this enormous stretch to try to justify Lord of the Rings while condemning Harry Potter.

That is simply incorrect. I am not Catholic, but I am a fan of both Tolkien and Potter. Not all Catholics condemn Harry Potter.

Let's take just one issue: there is no God in the books. No mention ever of a supreme being, no reference even to life after death. What happens to these characters when they die? From a truly Catholic perspective, that is the only issue that really matters. Yet LoR ignores it entirely, even though basic consistency of plot would require some explanation of what happens to elves when they die as opposed to living forever.

You need to read the books with understanding. God is all through the books, and the appendices and subsequent works by Tolkien. I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't see God in these works, you aren't paying attention.

As for the afterlife...what do you think is represented by the Grey Havens? It is most significant that "non-elves" (Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli) are invited to go on that journey. What could it mean except heaven?

And the Christlike symbolism is all through the books: Frodo the Deliverer, Gandalf the Resurrected, Aragorn the Returning King.

15 posted on 11/06/2003 9:08:35 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Maximilian
Actually, if you read the Silmarillion, the metaphysics, the nature of the creatures of Middle Earth is explained. There is a single creator, who creates Angels of Light to create the world. One of the Angels decides he should take over, and rebels. The Result is a war for creation that only fully ends in Return of the King. Tolkein hated allegory, so it wouldn't make sense for him to do the same thing C.S. Lewis did in that series, so rather than creating an overt Christian story, he merely created a myth with Christian undertones and values and lessons. (Just revealed myself as a complete geek). If I am not mistaken (another geek will correct me), the Humans have souls, it was the nature of their choice and a gift that was given them, the Gift of Men, mortality, with the knowledge that their souls live on, the Elves don't have that, they are immortal, are bound to Middle Earth and when they die, they are gone. Again, have to read some of his "earlier" chronological works to find that stuff.
68 posted on 11/06/2003 11:23:08 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Maximilian
Sorry, I can't buy any of this. Catholics make this enormous stretch to try to justify Lord of the Rings while condemning Harry Potter.

Sorry, but Catholics don't condemn Harry Potter.

Some do, and some say that it is a good yarn that helps kids respect right and wrong. If you refer to Paul, it's like his argument about pagan gods: he says some people say these gods are not real, and others say they are real and need to be shunned.

As for mentioning God: Catholics are't usually big about bragging or pushing God to others. (except for former Protestants and for a small group who actually preach or explain the faith in some forums).

Catholics teach with stories, and see God and us as a family relationship.

Were you aware that most of the 911 firefighters were Catholic? Many were devout. Yet few reported it. Catholics just absorb the idea of love of neighbor and self sacrifice as part of their faith.

In LOTR, you don't see sociopaths, but men with flaws who seek to do the right thing, without making a big deal about it. They take responsibility. They tell stories. They like to party. They protect each other, even would die for each other, because they know that's what the world is about...but they aren't big about praying out loud and saying praise Jesus. They obey the natural law and have reverence for nature, for others, and for a higher power (note the times when they call on Elbereth, or the discussion where Frodo is told he is MEANT to find the ring-- but not by it's maker).

Gandalf was an incarnated Angel in Tolkiens's theology, so his magic is natural. Humans who seek occult power descend to evil (the ringwraiths and Boromir)...unlike Harry Potter, who learns to manipulate power as a human...this idea that occult/spiritual powers are not to be sought is a Jewish/christian idea also....

Pearce's explanations are Catholic mainly for other catholics.

However, a good Evangelical book which explores the pros and cons is : Tolkien in Perspective: by Greg Wright of the website Hollywood Jesus...

84 posted on 11/06/2003 5:02:00 PM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politcially correct poor people.)
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