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To: TheCrusader
The evidence against the orthodoxy of these two men is overwhelming.

I see no such evidence. On the contrary, I see two great men striving to preserve the deposit of faith in difficult times of modernism and moral heresy. Talk about special pleading! To equate the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger with modernist "spirit of Vatican II" types like Richard McBrien or Hans Kueng and his ilk is simply obscene. It shows a true lack of any ability to make distinctions and a complete lack of charity toward the head of our Church.

From the Pope's kissing of the Koran

You guys constantly bring this up. There is no evidence that this was anything more than a courteous gesture, and probably a mistaken one. It is not a statement on faith or morals whatsoever, but simply a physical gesture. It is not an infallible definition. Nothing in anything the Pope has said or written decrees or implies that we should pay any heed to this book. Perhaps he made an honest mistake, and it is very uncharitable of you to interpret a mistaken GESTURE as something heretical when there is no eveidence whatsoever of heretical teaching about Islam or the Koran.

to his traveling about the earth apologizing for the historical Church

He has not apologized for teachings on faith and morals, but for sinful actions of members of the Church. Whether he really can apologize for other individuals is something that is certainly questionable, but it is a good faith gesture and not heretical. Members of the Church committed sins, e.g., unjustified killings in the Crusades and Inquisition, and to the extent they have committed sin, they are partially separated from the Body of Christ, as we are when we are not in a state of grace. Therefore, the apologies do not contradict the doctrine that the Mystical Body and Bride of Christ is spotless and pure in a theological sense.

and everything in between I am saddened. From his teaching that "evolution is more than just a theory"

A Catholic need not accept that the creation described in Genesis is literally true (except that there was an Adam and an Eve who are the parents of humanity and that there was an actual fall from grace, per Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis), as opposed to true on a more symbolic level -- we can look at the different types of litterature that formed the Bible.

to his shocking refusal to excommunicate a single priest or bishop amongst the hundreds upon hundreds of clergy who raped boys and the dozens of Bishops who covered up this atrocity,

These are sins, which hopefully these erring clerics have confessed and done penance for. They are not challenging on an ideological level the teachings of the faith.

there is nothing whatsover to convince me of the Holy Father's orthodoxy.

The pope will write his opposition to Communion in the hand, but then hold Masses on Vatican grounds where he himself distributes Communion in the hand.

This is a disciplinary liturgical matter, not a doctrine of the faith.

He invites the likes of the heroin addicted, anti-society icon Bob Dylan to entertain himself at the Vatican

I'm not familiar with the incident, but I hardly see this as heretical. Jesus Himself hung out with publicans and sinners to encourage their repentance.

and holds embarrassing and bizarre "Youth Day" events all over the globe that rival a Madonna concert with raucus music and faithless teens looking for a fun time.,/p>

How do you know they are "faithless". These events may not be to your liking, but they are trying to reach out to modern youth in a way that they are used to. If it has brought some youngsters closer to Christ, then I don't see a problem. I don't see any heresy here.

He has no problem whatsoever excommunicating or censuring a rebellious CONSERVATIVE bishop or priest, but obstinately refuses to do the same to the rebellious LIBERAL clergy and prelates.

He certainly could do more in this regard, but he has done some, e.g. Hans Kueng, and has promoted orthodox faith through his teaching and preaching and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Basically, he is waiting out the liberals, hoping they will die off (the younger clergy by the way are more orthodox than the older ones), rather than coming down hard. Perhaps one could criticize his strategy on prudential grounds, but it is not heretical.

I could go on all night citing evidence that this Pope is no conservative or orthodox Catholic, but to those who are too afraid to admit the facts no amount of evidence will convince them. So be it.

I'm not afraid of anything. I have stated the facts and I see no evidence of lack of orthodoxy. Viva il Papa!

84 posted on 11/06/2003 9:17:29 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam
"To equate the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger with modernist "spirit of Vatican II" types like Richard McBrien or Hans Kueng and his ilk is simply obscene. It shows a true lack of any ability to make distinctions and a complete lack of charity toward the head of our Church."

Pssst. Hans Kung is still proudly teaching his errors through books, interviews, articles, radio and t.v. programs. But don't tell the Holy Father, because the Vatican has "silenced" him. tee hee

86 posted on 11/06/2003 10:36:01 PM PST by TheCrusader
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To: Unam Sanctam
"From the Pope's kissing of the Koran--- and it is very uncharitable of you to interpret a mistaken GESTURE as something heretical when there is no eveidence whatsoever of heretical teaching about Islam or the Koran."

Hmmmmm, he kissed the Koran, and sent an Apostolic Delegate to the new Mosque in Rome to bless it, and now didn't he teach us in the catechism that Muslims are going to heaven because we are all children of Abraham? I think it's strange that he would even bother to write his views on Islam in a CATHOLIC catechism in the first place. Not very "traditional" in my humble opinion. He sure is a cutting edge progressive pope though, I gotta give you that. See you at the next World Youth Day?

87 posted on 11/06/2003 11:45:10 PM PST by TheCrusader
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