Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Hermann the Cherusker; Catholicguy; ThomasMore; sinkspur; sitetest; Francisco; american colleen; ...
"that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

Ping to the latest ecumenical offering from the USCCB - is this progress or capitulation?

I would be interested in your thoughts - bit of a long read though!
2 posted on 10/30/2003 5:18:01 PM PST by Tantumergo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: Tantumergo
I would be interested in your thoughts - bit of a long read though!

Didn't read it; can't get excited about the whole issue.

3 posted on 10/30/2003 5:38:59 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]

To: Tantumergo
...because of the progress in mutual understanding that has come about in recent decades, Orthodox and Catholics refrain from labeling as heretical the traditions of the other side on the subject of the procession of the Holy Spirit;

So progress has only been made in "recent decades"? Would that be the three decades since VC II? Another ten years of this nonsense of "mutual understanding" and there will be no heretics, no false religions, no Hell, no Purgatory; no need to be Catholic.

7 posted on 10/30/2003 6:42:10 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]

To: Tantumergo
I think it seems a bit radical to take out the Filioque clause of the Creed in the Roman rite (if that is what is meant by using the original Greek text alone). I am firmly against rapidly making major changes when it comes to matters of religion, particularly doctrinal points. I would stew on it for a few centuries.
10 posted on 10/30/2003 9:16:15 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]

To: Tantumergo; FormerLib
The answer to this entire issue is located in these three paragraphs, and the Patristic and Medieval authorities it cites. Anyone with eyes of faith can see the way forward in unity that is laid out here.

If “theology” is understood in its Patristic sense, as reflection on God as Trinity, the theological issue behind this dispute is whether the Son is to be thought of as playing any role in the origin of the Spirit, as a hypostasis or divine “person,” from the Father, who is the sole ultimate source of the divine Mystery. The Greek tradition, as we have seen, has generally relied on John 15.26 and the formulation of the Creed of 381 to assert that all we know of the Spirit’s hypostatic origin is that he “pro­ceeds from the Father,” in a way distinct from, but parallel to, the Son’s “generation” from the Father (e.g., John of Damascus, On the Orthodox Faith 1.8). However, this same tradition acknowledges that the “mission” of the Spirit in the world also involves the Son, who receives the Spirit into his own humanity at his baptism, breathes the Spirit forth onto the Twelve on the evening of the resurrection, and sends the Spirit in power into the world, through the charismatic preaching of the Apostles, at Pentecost. On the other hand, the Latin tradition since Tertullian has tended to assume that since the order in which the Church normally names the persons in the Trinity places the Spirit after the Son, he is to be thought of as coming forth “from” the Father “through” the Son. Augustine, who in several passages himself insists that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father,” because as God he is not inferior to the Son (De Fide et Symbolo 9.19; Enchiridion 9.3), develops, in other texts, his classic understanding that the Spirit also “proceeds” from the Son because he is, in the course of sacred history, the Spirit and the “gift” of both Father and Son (e.g., On the Trinity 4.20.29; Tractate on Gospel of John 99.6-7), the gift that begins in their own eternal exchange of love (On the Trinity 15.17.29). In Augustine’s view, this involve­ment of the Son in the Spirit’s procession is not understood to contradict the Father’s role as the single ultimate source of both Son and Spirit, but is itself given by the Father in generating the Son: “the Holy Spirit, in turn, has this from the Father himself, that he should also proceed from the Son, just as he proceeds from the Father” (Tractate on Gospel of John 99.8).

Much of the difference between the early Latin and Greek traditions on this point is clearly due to the subtle difference of the Latin procedere from the Greek ekporeuesthai: as we have observed, the Spirit’s “coming forth” is designated in a more general sense by the Latin term, without the connotation of ultimate origin hinted at by the Greek. The Spirit’s “procession” from the Son, however, is conceived of in Latin theology as a somewhat different relationship from his “procession” from the Father, even when – as in the explanations of Anselm and Thomas Aquinas – the relationship of Father and Son to the Holy Spirit is spoken of as constituting “a single principle” of the Spirit’s origin: even in breathing forth the Spirit together, according to these later Latin theologians, the Father retains priority, giving the Son all that he has and making possible all that he does.

Greek theologians, too, have often struggled to find ways of expressing a sense that the Son, who sends forth the Spirit in time, also plays a mediating role of some kind in the Spirit’s eternal being and activity. Gregory of Nyssa, for instance, explains that we can only distinguish the hypostases within the Mystery of God by “believing that one is the cause, the other is from the cause; and in that which is from the cause, we recognize yet another distinction: one is immediately from the first one, the other is through him who is immediately from the first one.” It is characteristic of the “mediation” (mesiteia) of the Son in the origin of the Spirit, he adds, that it both pre­serves his own unique role as Son and allows the Spirit to have a “natural relationship” to the Father. (To Ablabius: GNO III/1, 56.3-10) In the thirteenth century, the Council of Blachernae (1285), under the leadership of Constantinopolitan Patriarch Gregory II, took further steps to interpret Patristic texts that speak of the Spirit’s being “through” the Son in a sense con­sis­tent with the Orthodox tradition. The Council proposed in its Tomos that although Chris­tian faith must maintain that the Holy Spirit receives his existence and hypostatic identity solely from the Father, who is the single cause of the divine Being, he “shines from and is manifested eternally through the Son, in the way that light shines forth and is manifest through the intermediary of the sun’s rays.” (trans. A. Papadakis, Crisis in Byzantium [St. Vladimir’s, 1996] 219) In the following century, Gregory Palamas proposed a similar interpretation of this relationship in a number of his works; in his Con­fession of 1351, for instance, he asserts that the Holy Spirit “has the Father as foundation, source, and cause,” but “reposes in the Son” and “is sent – that is, manifested – through the Son.” (ibid. 194) In terms of the transcendent divine energy, although not in terms of substance or hypostatic being, “the Spirit pours itself out from the Father through the Son, and, if you like, from the Son over all those worthy of it,” a communi­ca­tion which may even be broadly called “procession” (ekporeusis) (Apodeictic Treatise 1: trans. J. Meyendorff, A Study of Gregory Palamas [St. Vladimir’s, 1974] 231-232).


27 posted on 10/31/2003 12:45:38 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]

To: Tantumergo
Read it but got a headache and a bellyache...too much halloween candy eaten during the reading.

Progress or capitulation? I would like to know what is the underpinning of this new dialogue. Why is the USCCB involved?(they seem to have enough problems to delve into with the scandals.)
60 posted on 10/31/2003 6:40:27 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson