The Filioque: A Church-Dividing Issue?

(USCCB) ^ | 29th October 2003 | North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation

[findingtruth]

Contraception is not something that Orthodox Christians are free to use whenever and however they like. Roman Catholics use a form on contraception known as the rythm method with the same desired effect.

from www.dictionary.com:
con·tra·cep·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kntr-spshn) n.
Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures.

Now unless you want to define abstinence from sex as falling under that definition, nothing the Catholic Church permits is contraception. Nor is the anything the Catholic Church permits against any law of God, unless you are going to try to find a divine commandment requiring couples to have intercourse whenever the wife is known to be fertile.

Hey, stop trying to argue that your own denomination hasn't caved, when it has. That being the case, it is understandable that you would try to argue that, oh well, the Catholic Church has caved also. It hasn't. Looks to me like logically, you should just openly embrace the sexual revolution, and be done with it.

[findingtruth]

By the way, doesn't the Roman Catholic church claim that our sacraments, such as the Eucharist, are valid? How could that be true in light of your diatribe?

Diatribe? Oh well, let that pass. The validity of a priest's orders is not tied to his personal sanctity or personal orthodoxy. I am not trying to imply here that your priests lack sanctity.

A priest can be a heretic, but his orders are still valid. A priest can be in mortal sin, but his orders are still valid. I am not trying to imply here that your priests are in mortal sin.

In fact, the Catholic Church recognizes some Anglican priests as having valid orders. It is a matter of whether they have apostolic succession, not a matter of whether or not they are correct in their dogma. I am not trying to imply here that your priests are as bad as Anglican priests.

[Tantumergo]

"To be fair (what did I just say?) I think they didn't intend it to mean he was an A.B. when he said it"

I know - I'm just being picky because I wanted to make the point that some of us deacons do get excited about Trinitarian theology. ;)

[findingtruth]

"Looks to me like logically, you should just openly embrace the sexual revolution, and be done with it."

Either that, or join the real Church.

[FormerLib]

...on the divorce issue in the Eastern Churches, there must have been some kind of council convened to discern the teaching of the Church since the teaching changed a bit along the way?

And I'll say again that the Eastern Churches approach to divorce is virtually the same as the Roman Catholic annulment. There was no change to accomodate.

Perhaps you are of the mistaken belief that the Orthodox Church automatically endorses every civil divorce granted? That simply is not true.

[FormerLib]

Now unless you want to define abstinence from sex as falling under that definition, nothing the Catholic Church permits is contraception.

Abstaining from sex to purposefully avoid fertilization is a form of contraception, particularly when the abstinence happens to match the female's normal cycle.

Let's read your own posted defintion:

Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures.

Yes, thank you for admitting the Roman Catholic church has approved a practice that avoids conception.

Hey, stop trying to argue that your own denomination hasn't caved, when it has.

No, I will continue to state the truth regardless of how many times you lack accuracy in your statements.

That being the case, it is understandable that you would try to argue that, oh well, the Catholic Church has caved also.

But the argument that you have presented shows that it has!

Either that, or join the real Church.

Already have, thank you. Perhaps you'll pay us a visit someday?

[FormerLib]

It doesn't seem clear to me that the uniates like the Melkites or Romanians or Chaldeans have been asked to change themselves in conformance to councils of which they were not a part.

To the best of my knowledge, they have not.

A Byzantine Catholic priest nearby has stated that they do not accept the teachings of Vatican I. I mentioned this to catholicguy once and he said the priest didn't sound very [Roman] Catholic to him. Being faced with a situation where the priest is claiming obedience to the Pope but rejecting (at least) some of the Western councils, I believe catholicguy was correct but I truly don't know what to make of it all.

[FormerLib]

...nothing outside of what you would read on FR threads dealing with apologetics.

I understand. Sometimes it is interesting to have them laid out in a list format. More often than not, that is the best method for me to open Scripture and the teaching of the Church Fathers and start checking references.

Old history major habit, I guess.

[findingtruth]

con·tra·cep·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kntr-spshn)
n.
Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures.

Now unless you want to define abstinence from sex as falling under that definition, nothing the Catholic Church permits is contraception.

Abstaining from sex to purposefully avoid fertilization is a form of contraception, particularly when the abstinence happens to match the female's normal cycle. Let's read your own posted defintion: Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures. Yes, thank you for admitting the Roman Catholic church has approved a practice that avoids conception.

Ah so. If you insist on including abstinence from sexual relations as a form of contraception, then on that basis you can say that the Catholic Church is permitting contraception. And then on that basis, you can say that that the Catholic Church has caved on the sin of onanism, just as your church has. It's the, "Since everybody is doing it, it must be okay," mentality. Personally, if I were in a denomination which advocated violating God's law (onanism is this case), I would find another denomination. I wouldn't excuse myself on the basis that, oh well, that other denomination over there does it too.

[FormerLib]

If you insist on including abstinence from sexual relations as a form of contraception, then on that basis you can say that the Catholic Church is permitting contraception.

Thank you for admitting it! Now we can move on.

I wouldn't excuse myself on the basis that, oh well, that other denomination over there does it too.

Actually, I was just pointing out your glass house on the issue.

[findingtruth]

"I am not trying to imply here that your priests are as bad as Anglican priests."

Excuse me, I was not even trying to imply that your priests are even bad. No doubt, you have bad ones and good ones.

[findingtruth]

Actually, I was just pointing out your glass house on the issue.

You mean because we have bad priests and bishops? Well hey, even Jesus Christ himself appointed twelve, and one of them was no good. The question is not whether there are bad clergy. The question is which church inherits the, "He who hears you hears me," guarantee.

[findingtruth]

A Byzantine Catholic priest nearby has stated that they do not accept the teachings of Vatican I

All that proves is that we still have, as usual, heretics in the Church.

[american colleen]

Ya know, as I recall, the list of "facts" from Crisis Mag wasn't much different than "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Kreeft (I think it's Karl Kreef - again too lazy to actually get up and look in the bookcase to make sure!). Good book, btw - it is sort of in list form and helped me to understand my own faith! I guess I understand things better in a combative environment!

[american colleen]

No, I don't think the Orthos automatically OK every divorce - like the Catholics don't.

My impression (please correct me if I am wrong!) is that you can marry up to three times but the only "big church wedding" would be the first one - sort of a sign that the Church isn't too happy about the whole thing.

I was a big naysayer re: Catholic annulments until I saw a thread posted here earlier this week. It seems that most annulments granted are to Catholics who married a non-Catholic or even to non-Catholics who divorced and then went on to conversion some time later. Not to say that NO Catholics get annulments, they certainly do as I have a few in my own family. I know they aren't all that easy to get - it's quite a long process but there are abuses because I know of them firsthand.

Let's face it, tons of Orthos and Catholics divorce, sadly. The Catholic rate runs about the same as the non-Catholic rate and I bet the Orthos are right there with us. We live in a selfish society and people don't like to go through those tough times that all marriages have at some point or another. Too bad because 1. kids and 2., cuz if you make it through, the marriage is much stronger for the suffering. And last but not least!... you broke a vow that you made before man and God.

I know officially, the Catholic Church does not allow divorce and remarriage (taken together) without an annulment which can be difficult although obviously not impossible. I doubt one could get two annulments though.

[Catholicguy]

LOL Touche

[Catholicguy]

Say, when I was lurking a while back, I saw you recommend a book on Catholic Prophecy and I bought it and it was fantastic.

I also saw you recomend a book on the Catholic - Orthodox history/controversies. What was it? I'd like to buy that also. Thanks

[Catholicguy]

Peter Kreeft, Philosophy Professor, convert, and a brilliant man. I have a bunch of his books.

[Catholicguy]

Yeah, I think I remember that. I do know the "Old Catholics" reject Vatican I and there are any number of current Catholics who reject Vatican Two.

Old Catholics The sect organised in German-speaking countries to combat the dogma of Papal Infallibility.

Filled with ideas of ecclesiastical Liberalism and rejecting the Christian spirit of submission to the teachings of the Church, nearly 1400 Germans issued, in September, 1870, a declaration in which they repudiated the dogma of Infallibility "as an innovation contrary to the traditional faith of the Church". They were encouraged by large numbers of scholars, politicians, and statesmen, and were acclaimed by the Liberal press of the whole world. The break with the Church began with this declaration, which was put forth notwithstanding the fact that the majority of the German bishops issued, at Fulda on 30 August, a common pastoral letter in support of the dogma. It was not until 10 April, 1871, that Bishop Hefele of Rotterdam issued a letter concerning the dogma to his clergy. By the end of 1870 all the Austrian and Swiss bishops had done the same.

The movement against the dogma was carried on with such energy that the first Old Catholic Congress was able to meet at Munich, 22-24 September, 1871. Before this, however, the Archbishop of Munich had excommunicated Döllinger on 17 April 1871, and later also Friedrich. The congress was attended by over 300 delegates from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, besides friends from Holland, France, Spain, Brazil, Ireland, and the representatives of the Anglican Church, with German and American Protestants. The moving spirit in this and all later assemblies for organization was Johann Friedrich von Schulte, the professor of dogma at Prague. Von Schulte summed up the results of the congress as follows:

Adherence to the ancient Catholic faith;

maintenance of the rights of Catholics as such; rejection of the new dogmas,

adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church;

reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity;

preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions;

reform of the training and position of the clergy;

adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism;

rejection of the Society of Jesus;

solemn assertion of the claims of Catholics as such to the real property of the Church and to the title to it.

[FormerLib]

My impression (please correct me if I am wrong!) is that you can marry up to three times but the only "big church wedding" would be the first one - sort of a sign that the Church isn't too happy about the whole thing.

Your impressions are pretty correct. If a second marriage occurs in the church, part of the ceremony includes prayers in apology for the first marriage. I've never heard of a third occuring but there is a mention that it could be permitted given the right circumstances.