Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A Cardinal to Watch
The National Revire Online ^ | 10/21/03 | Father Raymond J. de Souza

Posted on 10/21/2003 10:14:01 AM PDT by dangus

Cardinals to Watch Will a Canadian be the next pope?

By Father Raymond J. de Souza

VATICAN CITY — Among the "red hats" going out to 30 new cardinals today at St. Peter's Square, Canada's newest cardinal, Archbishop Marc Ouellet of Quebec City will be getting a lot of special attention.

While has spent the last week here continually relating his surprise at being named a cardinal, and laughing out loud at any mention that he may one day be elected pope, not everyone finds the concept risible.

At least one of his fellow new cardinals has said — off the record of course, as a certain decorum is maintained on the matter of papal succession — that Cardinal Ouellet has all the qualities to be elected pope, except that he is so new.

"New" is actually an understatement. Just three years ago, Father Marc Ouellet was teaching theology in Rome, after having served previously as the head of seminaries in Montreal and Edmonton. He was told in March 2001 that he would be ordained a bishop and appointed second-in-command of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity — with only two weeks' notice. After less than two years in that job, he was appointed archbishop of Quebec City — a clear indication that Quebec was a special priority in the eyes of the Holy See. And now a cardinal. Meteoric does not begin to describe the rise.

What next?

That's the question being discussed in Rome this past week, as Pope John Paul has presided over his anniversary ceremonies in a remarkably weaker condition than he was in last spring. The cardinals — again off the record — speak frankly that they need, as responsible electors, to talk with each other about the future. But at this stage the talk is not so much about who specifically should be the next pope — there will be time enough for that — but rather what kind of pope the Catholic Church needs.

Leaving aside all speculation about the next pope, that is why Cardinal Ouellet is getting so much attention in Rome. He is, many Vatican officials and visiting cardinals and bishops say, the kind of man the Church is looking for. Whether he will be in fact be that man is really a secondary question — at least for now.

The anniversary celebrations have been a way of illustrating what kind of man John Paul's successor has to be. First, a Christian disciple of deep prayer and an ability to make great sacrifices for the gospel. John Paul's old age has highlighted this aspect of the papal "job description" moreso than his early years of frenetic activity.

Second, a world-class intellect which can provide the necessary theological leadership in a world in which errors get equal time with the truth on the Internet, a media world where all ideas claim equal authority.

Third, a gifted communicator who can make relevant the truths of the faith in a compelling way in the media age. This is what the cardinals mean when they talk about John Paul's "public presence".

Fourth, a man who is so transparent with the joy of the gospel that he can say that the answer to every human problem is, as John Paul said famously 25 years ago tomorrow, "to open wide the doors to Christ."

And he has to be a linguist.

Is Ouellet that kind of man? The polyglot's spiritual and intellectual resources are beyond doubt. His ability to communicate the faith appears strong, though he is so new that it will take time to tell.

Ouellet is getting major attention here because he seems to be that kind of man, and electors who point to him as papabile (literally, "pope-able") are using a kind of shorthand to say what the Church needs in this moment.

There are other stars amongst the new cardinals, including Angelo Scola of Venice, Bernard Panafieu of Marseille, and George Pell of Sydney, not to mention less-new cardinals. Like Ouellet, to say whether they are papabili is, at this point, rank speculation.

Yet the cardinals to watch are the ones who are already being watched by their brother cardinals and Vatican observers. Many factors go into choosing a pope — age, geography, personal charisma, relations with the others in the college. The immediate run-up to a papal conclave will focus on much of that. This period is for something more preliminary — the determination of what kind of pope is needed.

Cardinal Ouellet's prominence seems to suggest that whether or not he becomes the first pope from the new world, whoever succeeds John Paul will be a man like him.

— Father Raymond J. de Souza, a chaplain at Queen's University in Ontario is covering the 25th anniversary of Pope John Paul II, the beatification of Mother Teresa, and associated events from Rome for the National Post and Fox News.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: archbishop; canadian; cardinalouellet; cardinals; romancatholic
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 141-156 next last
To: Hermann the Cherusker; sinkspur
Context please?

On one hand, if we are to pray for those "most needing of thy mercy," aren't we praying for the most wretched soul to be spared of Hell? If so, who is to be left in Hell?

OTOH, universalism is a heresy. If we are to pray in confidance that our prayers are to be answered, then does this not lead to universalism?
21 posted on 10/21/2003 11:41:12 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: dangus; sinkspur
If so, who is to be left in Hell?

The Devil and his Angels and all human malefactors who have died up to this time, including such notables as Judas, Mohammad, Luther, and Stalin.

Do you agree with Balthasar that we may hope no human has ever gone to hell? Is the Roman Liturgy full of lies?

22 posted on 10/21/2003 11:51:20 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker; dangus
On hope, heaven and hell

by Nick Healy, Jr.

At the end of the final volume of his Theological Dramatics, Hans Urs von Balthasar tentatively proposes that we consider the question of eternal damnation not so much from the perspective of man ("What does man lose if he loses God?"), as from the standpoint of God: ("What does God lose if he loses man?"). What would it mean for God to have to condemn one of His creatures? According to Balthasar, we have become too accustomed to posing the question of eternal damnation abstractly, as though the outcome were a matter of indifference. In Jesus Christ, God has revealed his desire to save all of mankind. As absolute love, God has involved Himself in the drama of our salvation precisely to the point of being abandoned and dying the death of a sinner "in our place." The loss of a portion of mankind, although a real possibility, would be an unspeakable tragedy for God and likewise for the Christian who is united in Christ to each member of humanity. Christians, who by baptism are given a share in the mission of Christ, are called to hope and pray for the salvation of all men.

In defending this thesis Hans Urs von Balthasar was confronted with considerable resistance and even accusations of heresy. In a series of articles published in The Wanderer in 1987, John Mulloy attacked Balthasar's theology as "contradicting the teaching of Jesus" and "contradicting 19 centuries of Catholic teaching."(1) While a student at Franciscan Univeristy, I often found myself defending Balthasar against similar accusations.

Because the issue is of such fundamental importance for what it means to be a Christian in the world, I would like to offer a defense of Balthasar's position. In the limited space available here I propose to consider two questions: (1) What does Balthasar teach about hell? What does he mean by 'hope for all men' and what are the grounds for this hope? (2) Is Balthasar's theology of hope consistent with the teaching of the Church?

Balthasar's position may be briefly summarized as follows: Both Scripture and Tradition testify to God's desire to save all mankind. The gift of salvation, accomplished in Jesus Christ, is freely offered to each creature. As a gift of love, salvation must be freely accepted. God refuses to overrule or violate human freedom. As Scripture attests, the consequence of a rejection of God's offer of love is eternal separation from God, i.e. hell. We do not know that any man or woman has in fact finally rejected God. Thus, while recognizing the real possibility of hell, we are called to hope that all men attain salvation. Balthasar repeatedly distances himself from a theory of the apokatastasis panton, or final restoration of all things, a theory attributed to Origen and condemned by the Church. He is careful to distinguish hope from knowledge: "Brothers and sisters of Christ, created by the Father for Christ, who died for them in atonement, may fail to reach their final destination in God and may instead suffer eternal damnation with its everlasting pain--which, in fact, would frustrate God's universal plan of salvation. If we take our faith seriously and respect the words of Scripture, we must resign ourselves to admitting such an ultimate possibility, our feelings of revulsion notwithstanding."(2) Again he writes, "It is therefore indispensable that every individual Christian be confronted, in the greatest seriousness, with the possibility of his becoming lost."(3)

In his book Dare We Hope "That all Men be Saved"? Balthasar draws attention to two series of passages in the New Testament that pertain to judgment and damnation. The first series speaks of individuals being condemned to eternal torment. Those who have rejected Christ are accountable for their actions and they will be cast into "the outer darkness," or "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:30ff.; see also Mt 5:22,29; 8:12; 10:28; 2 Pet 2:4-10; 3:7; Rev 19:20f.). The second series of texts speaks of God's desire, and ability, to save all mankind. "God our Savior...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:4). Anticipating his suffering and death, Jesus proclaims, "Now is the judgment of this world,...when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself" (Jn 12:31). "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy upon all" (Rom 11:32; see also 2 Pet 3:9; Titus 2:11; Rom 5:14-21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20).

A harmonious synthesis between these two series of texts is not possible. A universalist theology, which knows with certainty that all will be saved, invalidates the numerous passages in Scripture which speak of judgment and eternal damnation as the consequence of sin. Likewise a theology which knows in advance a double outcome of judgment cannot take seriously the universal salvific will of God as expressed in 1 Timothy 2:4 and elsewhere. Against those theologies which claim to know in advance and with certainty the final outcome of God's judgement, Balthasar defends the mystery of hope. The same God who reserves judgment for himself has placed himself in solidarity with the sinner even to the point of death and God-forsakenness. Balthasar cites approvingly the following text from Hermann-Josef Lauter: "Will it really be all men who allow themselves to be reconciled? No theology or prophecy can answer this question. But love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7). It cannot do otherwise than to hope for the reconciliation of all men in Christ. Such unlimited hope is, from the Christian standpoint, not only permitted but commanded."(4)

This command to hope for all is not without its difficulties. Confronted with drastic misuses of human freedom and evil in all its forms, how can such a hope take seriously the realities of sin, justice and human freedom? It should be emphasized that Balthasar does not downplay the biblical themes of justice and the wrath of God in favor of a philosophical doctrine that holds damnation to be somehow incompatible with God's nature as love. By situating creation, judgment, and even the mystery of hell, within the reciprocal trinitarian relations, Balthasar gives the whole problematic a new seriousness. The true nature of sin as an affront to God and the extent to which God promotes human freedom is not fully revealed until the Son stands exposed and abandoned by the Father for the sake of the sinner.

Balthasar's meditations on the passion of Christ are deeply indebted to the mystic Adrienne von Speyr. Beginning on Good Friday of each year from 1941 until her death in 1967 Adrienne was initiated in the mystery of Christ's trinitarian abandonment. Balthasar summarizes her theological contribution as follows:

"Adrienne unlocks a hitherto scarcely developed part of the theology of redemption. On Good Friday the Son's love renounces all sensible contact with the Father, so that he can experience in himself the sinner's distance from God. (No one can be more abandoned by the Father than the Son, because no one knows him and depends on him as much as the Son.) But then, after Good Friday, comes the final, the most paradoxical and most mysterious stage of this loving obedience: the descent into hell. In Adrienne's new experience and interpretation of hell, this means descent into that reality of sin which the Cross has separated from man and humanity, the thing God has eternally and finally cast out of the world, the thing in which God never, ever, can be. The Son has to go through this in order to return to the Father in the ultimate obedience of death."(5)

Out of love for the world, God takes upon himself the burden and consequence of sin. Thus while the sinner remains free to reject God's offer of love, God accompanies the sinner in his rejection and abandonment.

Before turning to consider the Church's teaching on hell, it may be helpful to examine the idea of predestination. Although often implicit, the idea of a limited predestination is one of the main reasons Balthasar's understanding of hope has met such formidable resistance. If God, "before the foundation of the world," has chosen only a limited number of individuals for salvation, then it would indeed be presumptuous and contrary to Revelation to hope that all mankind might be saved. A longstanding theological tradition within the Church has defended this idea of a limited predestination. Consider for example the statement of St. Thomas, "God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as he wishes them all some good, but he does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good-- namely, eternal life--He is said to hate, that is to reprobate some men" (ST I q 23 a 3 ad 1). Despite its having deep roots in the Catholic tradition, this idea has never been officially sanctioned by the Church, who has consistently affirmed the universal salvific will of God.(6) The mystery of predestination as expressed by St. Paul is clearly part of the deposit of faith, but a careful reading of Paul's epistles shows that the limiting of predestination to only part of humanity is unwarranted. According to St. Paul all of humanity, indeed the whole cosmos, is predestined in Christ, the Firstborn of all creation.

At the Second Vatican Council renewed attention was given to the christocentric character of both redemption and creation. In a text that has been cited in virtually every one of John Paul II's encyclicals the Council Fathers wrote, "It is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear...Christ the new Adam, in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and his love, fully reveals man to himself" (Gaudium et Spes, n. 22). An essential part of this christocentric renewal is the Council's clear teaching on the universal salvific will of God. Ad Gentes Divinitus declares, "The reason for missionary activity lies in the will of God, 'who wishes all men to be saved' ...[I]n ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him" (n. 7). John Paul II has taken up and deepened this same theme. In the encyclical Redemptoris Missio he writes:

"While acknowledging that God loves all people and grants them the possibility of being saved (cf. 1 Tm 2:4), the Church believes that God has established Christ as the one mediator and that she herself has been established as the universal sacrament of salvation....It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity and the necessity of the Church for salvation....The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation (n, 9-10)."

This passage expresses forcefully the same position defended by Balthasar. If Christ desires the salvation of all and if there is a "real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity," hope for all is simply part of what it means to follow Christ.

An argument which claims to know with certainty that some men will suffer damnation would clearly attenuate the force of the whole passage. The Church's affirmations of the existence of hell "are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny" (CCC, n. 1036). The Church has never taught that any man or woman actually is or will end up in hell.(7) Finally, the Church's understanding of hope is fittingly reflected in her liturgical prayers: "Lord, accept the offering of your Church; and may what each individual offers up to the honor of your name lead to the salvation of all. For this we pray to you through Christ our Lord" (Weekday Mass I, Tuesday, Offertory Prayer). "Father, you sent your angel to Cornelius, to show him the way of salvation. Help us to work generously for the salvation of the world so that your Church may bring us and all mankind into your presence" (Liturgy of the Hours, Tuesday, Midafternoon Prayer).

In his anguish over the Israelites' rejection of Christ St. Paul writes, "I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren" (Rom 9:3). The hope for the salvation of all as defended by Hans Urs von Balthasar does not entail laxity or presumption in the face of judgment. At its deepest level to hope with Christ means to share in the life of Christ who offers himself eucharistically for the salvation of the world. "You do not save your soul as you save a treasure," writes Charles Peguy, "You save it as you lose a treasure, by squandering it. We must save ourselves together. We must arrive together before the good Lord. What would he say if we arrived before him alone, if we came home to him without the others?" (The Mystery of the Charity of Joan of Arc).

23 posted on 10/21/2003 12:20:51 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter! Save a life, and maybe you'll save your own, too!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; Antoninus; apologia_pro_vita_sua; ...
Marc Ouellet PING
24 posted on 10/21/2003 12:22:19 PM PDT by Loyalist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
>> The Devil and his Angels and all human malefactors who have died up to this time, including such notables as Judas, Mohammad, Luther, and Stalin.

I won't assert given human is in hell. There are even biblical hints Judas died contrite.

>> Do you agree with Balthasar that we may hope no human has ever gone to hell?

I don't think so, but I'd like to know the context of what he said. I mean, for all I know, he was just reading his script from "Battlestar Galactica."*

>> Is the Roman Liturgy full of lies

I'm not going to cascande any presumptions, but no, it's not.

*o, o, OH! Like I'm the only one thinking that! C'Mon Freepers, you're letting me down... someone post a picture of that purple, pointy-headed, freak!
25 posted on 10/21/2003 12:23:10 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker; sinkspur
OK, here's the thing:
1. Balthazar does not believe himself to be teaching contrary to the church's teaching. If incorrect, he is not disobedient. Since he is not disobedient, our Quebecois cardinal is not guilty by association. I'd like to see something that states he confers with Balthazar before I brand him a heretic.

2. Is Balthazar a heretic? We may pray for our own salvation. We may hope in our own salvation. Yet, we must not presume apon God's forgiveness.

Can we likewise not pray for, and indeed hope for, the salvation of all mankind, while not presuming it? What in the liturgy asserts that there are people suffering eternally in Hell?

3. If Balthazar hypothesis is wrong, is he even then a heretic? Is Balthazar asserting a falsehood, or is he merely posing a question for the church to answer more satisfactorily?

From what I read, Balthazar is out on a limb. But since he has not been disobedient, or rejected authoritative correction (as opposed to finding a nonauthroitative response unpersuasive), how can Oumellette be guilty by simply associating with Balthazar?
26 posted on 10/21/2003 12:45:15 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: dangus
Can we likewise not pray for, and indeed hope for, the salvation of all mankind, while not presuming it? What in the liturgy asserts that there are people suffering eternally in Hell?

No, and nothing.

I happen to agree with von Balthasar. There is nothing contradictory about believing in hell and in hoping that there is no one there.

27 posted on 10/21/2003 12:47:07 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter! Save a life, and maybe you'll save your own, too!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: dangus
Correction: Yes, we can pray that there is no one in hell.
28 posted on 10/21/2003 12:48:32 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter! Save a life, and maybe you'll save your own, too!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: dangus
Oumelette=Oulette.

Mus' be hungry. Egging for some puns?
29 posted on 10/21/2003 1:00:05 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: dangus; sinkspur
I won't assert given human is in hell. There are even biblical hints Judas died contrite.

How is it those hints were missed by all until Adirenne von Speyr and Hans Urs von Balthasar came along?

St. John 17.12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept: and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture may be fulfilled.

Psalm 108.2 O God, be not thou silent in my praise: for the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful man is opened against me.
3 They have spoken against me with deceitful tongues; and they have compassed me about with words of hatred; and have fought against me without cause.
4 Instead of making me a return of love, they detracted me: but I gave myself to prayer.
5 And they repaid me evil for good: and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand.
7 When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin.
8 May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take.

Acts of the Apostles 1.15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty):
16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:
17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Where are these hints in the above?

I don't think so, but I'd like to know the context of what he said.

Read the articles of his defenders for a concise summary, like Nick Healy. Sinkspur posted that one on this thread.

I'm not going to cascande any presumptions, but no, it's not.

O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. (Collect for Holy Thursday and Good Friday, Roman Missal)

At Damascus, St. Peter Mavimenus, who visited by some Arabs in his sickness, said: "Whoever does not embrace the Christian and Catholic faith is lost, like your false prophet Mohammed", whereupon they killed him. (Roman Martyrology, February 21)

30 posted on 10/21/2003 1:02:36 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
One more - "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matt., xxvi, 24).
31 posted on 10/21/2003 1:12:43 PM PDT by Francisco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
I find your scripture quotations far, far, far from convincing. I did not question whether Judas was punished, but whether his punishment is eternal.

And, as for St. Peter Mavemimenis, he does not say that all Muslims throughout eternity are damned. This may have been what he meant, or he might have meant only those who heard him preach the gospel. I tend to think he means the latter. And he is not infallible.
32 posted on 10/21/2003 1:13:13 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: dangus
"it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matt., xxvi, 24).

I'm convinced.

33 posted on 10/21/2003 1:15:36 PM PDT by Francisco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Francisco
I'm certainly not. Cartianly Judas will at least suffer immensely. Would he not be better to have died earlier that to have had the opportunity to kill Jesus for which he will greatly be punished? Likewise, isn't it better he be stillborn?
34 posted on 10/21/2003 1:19:40 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur; dangus; Catholicguy
Balthasar was very good at creating a false dichotomy which does not exist, and presumptuous in assuming the Church had it all wrong for so long, especially Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

Some of the errors in this are quite comical.

A harmonious synthesis between these two series of texts is not possible.

This is called Modernism. The Scriptures are not contradictory.

Likewise a theology which knows in advance a double outcome of judgment cannot take seriously the universal salvific will of God as expressed in 1 Timothy 2:4 and elsewhere.

Why? It seems like human freedom is utterly mocked then. God doesn't force the damned into hell, they choose it. He foreknows, they choose. He gives them the grace for salvation, they reject it.

Will it really be all men who allow themselves to be reconciled? No theology or prophecy can answer this question. But love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7). It cannot do otherwise than to hope for the reconciliation of all men in Christ. Such unlimited hope is, from the Christian standpoint, not only permitted but commanded.

One cannot hope for what is revealed by God as impossible. This sort of theologizing only goes to show the most abysmal ignorance of revelation.

Numbers 16.30 But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
31 And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke asunder under their feet:
32 And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
33 And they went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

the Son stands exposed and abandoned by the Father for the sake of the sinner.

If Christ is God, He cannot be "abandoned" by the Father.

In Adrienne's new experience and interpretation of hell

Galatians 1.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

If God, "before the foundation of the world," has chosen only a limited number of individuals for salvation, then it would indeed be presumptuous and contrary to Revelation to hope that all mankind might be saved.

But that is the de fide doctrine of the Church!

According to St. Paul all of humanity, indeed the whole cosmos, is predestined in Christ, the Firstborn of all creation.

Even the Devil and his fallen Angels?

The Church has never taught that any man or woman actually is or will end up in hell.

No, she just states in her prayers that Judas and Mohammad are lost. No big deal to reinterpret away.

Lord, accept the offering of your Church; and may what each individual offers up to the honor of your name lead to the salvation of all. For this we pray to you through Christ our Lord

Obviously referring to the here and now. Those who have died are either saved or damned. There is no third place apart from walking towards heaven or hastening into hell.

The hope for the salvation of all as defended by Hans Urs von Balthasar does not entail laxity or presumption in the face of judgment.

It sure seems to, because it implies the impenitent life lived by the wicked is irrelevant.

35 posted on 10/21/2003 1:24:19 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
St. John 17.12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept: and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture may be fulfilled.

Psalm 40:10 For even the man of my peace, in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, hath greatly supplanted me.

36 posted on 10/21/2003 1:45:40 PM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
>> Balthasar was very good at creating a false dichotomy which does not exist, and presumptuous in assuming the Church had it all wrong for so long, especially Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

Arguing points not in evidence.

>>>> A harmonious synthesis between these two series of texts is not possible.
>> This is called Modernism. The Scriptures are not contradictory.

I do agree with your statement; I'm bothered much by the wording of this, but the wording is Nick Healy's. I do hope the error is Nick's not von Balthazar's.

>>Why? It seems like human freedom is utterly mocked then. God doesn't force the damned into hell, they choose it. He foreknows, they choose. He gives them the grace for salvation, they reject it.

No, I think at issue is whether anyone, once possessed with full knowledge of the depth of God's love, and full awe at his majesty would choose hell; or, if that choice can be made when someone is ignorant of it.

>>And they went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.

Since we're dealing OT, I'm presuming the original Greek said Hades, a term that includes even where the patriarchs rested.

>>If Christ is God, He cannot be "abandoned" by the Father.

He experienced abandonment temporarily by becoming fully human. Although quoting Psalm 22, he was speaking truthfully when he *did* cry out, "My God, my God, why have you abandonned me."

>>But that is the de fide doctrine of the Church!

We are trying to establish whether it is.

>>Even the Devil and his fallen Angels?

Of course not.

>>No, she just states in her prayers that Judas and Mohammad are lost.

I'm unconvinced of that.

>>It sure seems to, because it implies the impenitent life lived by the wicked is irrelevant.

Ooooo, Hermann, how protestant of you. You do believe in purgation, no?
37 posted on 10/21/2003 1:47:29 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: dangus
OK, OK, OK... This thread is spinning wildly off topic... Anyone else has any insight to Cardinal Oulette *besides* his associations with the Cylon? (Herm, not saying we can't continue this discussion... I'm just hoping others won't be so sidetracked.)
38 posted on 10/21/2003 1:51:12 PM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
The notes in my Douai make no bones (pun intended) about it. "He hath perished, that is, now is about being lost....by his own fault...not in any ways show it was the will of God that Judas should be lost but only that what happened to Judas was conformable to the prophecies and not occsioned by them. The devil entered Judas' heart but he couldn't have, says Augustine, if Judas didn't give him a place. Augustine said Judas could have abstained from betraying Jesus, btw.
39 posted on 10/21/2003 1:54:32 PM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
Dom Orchard's "A Commentary on Catholic Scripture" handles this with dispatch "Up to the present, Jesus kept them, so that none of them fell into such temptation as brought permanent rejection (18;9) except 'tye somn of perdition."- a Semitism of metaphorical relation denoting destiny, like 'son of gehenna,' son of death. Judas was destined to perish but by his own fault."
40 posted on 10/21/2003 2:01:44 PM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 141-156 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson