Musicians in Catholic Worship ­ III Bells and Whistles, Guitars and Tambourines

Adoremus ^ | October 2003 | Lucy Carroll

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

We were only kidding. Sometimes that smokes 'em out though. I love the look on their face when that happens. LOL!

[dangus]

OK, so here's the thing... If Godspell is using an archetype whose origins are not evil, does anyone have a problem with Godspell's depcition of Jesus as a fool. Keep in mind:
1. The archetype means the fool knows precisely what he's doing, and is wiser than anyone else;
2. All the other stuff about the the meaning of a fool;
3. There is a biblical basis for allowing the world to regard the Christian as a fool.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

The Jesus I know doesn't seem like a clown or mime to me.
Artists and writers can make use of that symbolism if they find it enlightening or if it serves some other mythological or aesthetic purpose. We had a theology professor in college (a Jesuit) who had us read a book with some of this "Jesus is a clown" mumbojumbo in it. I'm not sure that I found this to be that helpful in advancing a clear understanding of Catholicism, but I'm open to hear anyone's explanation or defense of this hermeneutical spin.
Any "Jesus is a clown" cultists on board? Fire way.

[ArrogantBustard]

Try "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun".

[ninenot]

Actually, the pipe organ (not the Hammond electronic) is the approved organ. All other orchestral instruments are allowed--brass, tympani, etc., IF and ONLY IF used in a fashion consistent with the principles of musica sacra as outlined in the article. The 'other instruments' were authorized in the mid- 1950's. In 90+% of the cases, they are used to accompany a choir/soloists (e.g., Mozart's 'Coronation Mass' as was done at St. Peter's for a Papal Mass about 10 years ago.)

[ninenot]

Speaking as a banjo player, one of the world's true oppressed minorities

and DESERVEDLY SO

[ninenot]

The Durufle and Faure Requiems were written after 1800, as was ALL of the output of Flor Peeters, a most talented and Catholic Belgian organist who also wrote outstanding Mass Ordinaries (Latin.) Peeters also wrote one of the finest Ave Marias for 4-part chorus--a neat gem, highly polished and eminently singable by a medium-talent chorus. Find his works in the CFPeters catalog. Buy some.

[ninenot]

The objective of raising children is NOT to feed them "children's music" but rather to form them with (good) adult taste.

There is room for "children's music"--e.g., the 1812 Overture...but not for education in culture.

[dangus]

Listen, I was hoping to get a good sense of what some people thought of this... When you start saying things like "The Jesus I know doesn't seem like a clown or a mime to me" and asking for "cultists" to "spin," in a context of "fir[ing] away" you make it hard for people to wrote openly.

You've made some insightful comments on this thread, and I appreciate them, but frankly, "The Jesus I know doesn't seem like a clown or mime to me" is hardly a unique or deep thought.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

OK. I don't experience any connection between clown/mime imagery and the Christ I was raised to worship as a Roman Catholic. I don't view it as inappropriate for me to admit that. Can we see Christ in all different kinds of people...school teachers, housewives, lonely hearts, drunks, prostitutes, bank clerks, lawyers, poliece men, constuction workers, maids, waitresses, etc. ? YES, indeed. I'm just not fond of the clown imagery brought into the Catholic Christological focus. It doesn't do anything for me.

Granted, that's a personal opinion and a matter of taste. I welcome anyone's input who wants to convince us of the efficacy of the "Jesus-as-a-clown" theology. Apologies if it seemed lacking in "unique or deep thought." If I have offended clown fans or mime enthusiasts, they was not the main point.

[ArrogantBustard]

[ArrogantBustard]

And it's off to buy more CDs...

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

If there has ever been a "Pink Floyd" or "Dark Side of the Moon" Mass, I'd be interested to hear the details...

[dangus]

>>The objective of raising children is NOT to feed them "children's music" but rather to form them with (good) adult taste.

>>There is room for "children's music"--e.g., the 1812 Overture...but not for education in culture.

Wow. I'm reminded of a line from a bad movie: "Were you potty trained at gun point?" Only teasing.

I agree in part with your comments... If the goal is to teach music, for instance, better to teach, "Twinkle, twinkle little star" than "Disco Duck," since it has simple building blocks which become the formation for more advanced musical learning.

On the other hand, an adult's perspective on what is good for children sometimes doesn't fit. I remember the horror of having to sit through "Peter and the Wolf" numerous times throughout my education, because some teachers thought, "it's classical, and it's about a child... it must be great for kids."

That said, I think you misread my post... What I wrote was "*I* like Godspell... it's a *child's* view of Jesus." There was a nature to Jesus which inspired children to run to him, even when adults in the area disapproved of it. There's a simplicity to it which is very appealing.

A good, formal Mass teaches us to say, "My Lord and Savior." Once in a while, a little something is good to remind us we can also say, "Daddy." That said, I was never comfortable with the depiction of Jesus as a clown or fool (as my Daddy was neither), which is why I was curious as to the meaning of it. (I've seen many versions. I know the original featured him as a clown because I've seen the album cover, but I've never seen him portrayed as a clown... the closest is the poor movie version, where he is sort of something between hippie, clown and jester.)

[dangus]

I wasn't expecting to say "Wow, dude, cosmic!" at any earth-shattering revelation (especially since I'm not a hippy, my appreciation for Godspell aside). It's just the way you addressed the issue really has the effect of shutting down conversation.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

It's a valid discussion. I would distinguish the symbolic and interpretive discussion from the specific stylistic issues of Godspell which is just impossible for me to take seriously with its ModSquad/Room 222 aesthetics and 1960s Zeitgeist. For me, that's goofy. Whether Jesus participates in some sort of typological symbolism having something to do with "the Fool" or trickster gods and heroes in the Jungian sense is all out there in the theological and scriptural studies literature.

Do clowns open children up to valid spiritual experiences? I don't know. Is that something which would be deficient in my understanding of Catholicism if I thought clowns were just goofy? I've never experienced a connection between clowns and mimes and what I have understood about my Catholic faith. The School of Theological Bozoology just has never grabbed me as something we need in the Catholic Church. Maybe I'm wrong or my phobia about clowns is clouding my vision.

[dangus]

*chuckle*
Tell the Vatican switchboard "never mind." Never heard of one. I've debated as to whether "Dark Side" was nihilist, or whether it intentionally suggested that there was *something* more out there that the first-person had not yet known. (i.e., is the sun defeated because it is eclipsed by the moon, or is it only a reminder that the sun is *merely* eclipsed by the moon for this short spell.)

Anyone who thinks "Great Gig in the Sky" has anything to do with sex is not invited.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

It's quite valid to look at spiritual and theological interpretations of what is going in popular music and culture. Do you follow this folklore about the "Dark Side of the Moon"/Wizard of Oz connection? The Beatles' song "Let it Be" has very obvious Catholic associations, imagery, and symbolism. I'd rather hear about "Mother Mary comes to me" than some of the New Agey stuff which has found its way into Mass in the U.S.

[AnAmericanMother]

We've sung the Peeters Ave Maria as well as the Faure Requiem. (I said I was suspicious, not that I rejected it all out of hand.) I actually have the score for one of Peeters' organ works around here somewhere - it somehow got home from the Cathedral and never found its way back . . . (my dad used to work on the organ over there.)

But the most wonderful "tiny gem of perfect lustre" is the Richard Farrant "Hide Not Thou Thy Face". I am most annoyed at being unable to find an audio clip, but the SATB score is sold paired with Call to Remembrance (scroll down & find it) The first couple of cuts I found the choir was singing it way below tempo, but this one is just right. They cut it off right before the extremely difficult key change (it comes on a page turn too.) :-D

Check this one out: Maurice Green: "Lord Let Me Know Mine End". This is going to be sung at my funeral (if anybody checks the note card I've put in the back of my choir folder . .. )

[dangus]

>>Wiz/DSOTM
Yeah... I even tried it out. hogwash
>>Let it Be
I know McCartney downplayed its Catholic-ness, but Socrates said the poets don't know their muses. He was brought up Catholic; it was in his head.

What I don't like is hearing John "Lenin" chuckle at it on the background of the album track.