Episcopalians Prepare for Split Over Gays

AP ^ | 10/9/03 | BOBBY ROSS JR.

[Miss Marple]

I note that they suggest consulting lawyers about the property.

In my opinion, the left wants the church property, which is why they have taken over the Episcopal Church rather than starting their own. Billions of dolars in real estate, trust funds, endowments, and art are a handy thing to have when you wish to advance a liberal agenda to the public.

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[A. Pole]

"Some people just wish it would go away," the Rev. Chris Ditzenberger, of Greenville, S.C., said of views held by his parishioners.

So send this homosexual "bishop" away.

[FreedomPoster]

As a casual observer / outsider, it's hard not to come to the same conclusion.

[NorthGA]

The property could go either way. When the southern presbyterian church split into liberal and conservative factions 30 years ago, individual churches wanted to keep their property - no matter which direction they wanted to go.

The liberal faction then put rules in place that said the property had to stay with the main denomination. That may be what the liberal episcopalian US denomination will argue - that conservatives have to abandon their own church property if they want to "leave" the denomination. While in reality, the denomination is the one who has left.

[sirchtruth]

"There's a lot of fearfulness about what else could happen down the line with regard to our doctrine and our understanding of the gospel."

Why would you be fearful? People who want to separate themselves from the spirit and deny truth will choose wrongly. It's not about an understanding, it's about listening to God and letting him lead.

[Miss Marple]

Correct. I had a vanity thread some months ago discussing this. I don't think the long-term plan has been to liberalize the church as much as to grab the property. Otherwise the left would have started their own church.

In my opinion, this is what is happening with all main line denominations. Traditionalists are being forced out while an increasing leftist agenda is pushed by the hierarchy. They intend to hold the land and money for their own uses.

[AppyPappy]

Actually, the best course is to stay and continuously condemn the violation of doctrine while diverting funds for local missions. The denomination will implode allowing the churches to keep their property.

[livius]

Interesting observation, MM.

As I understand it, all Episcopal Church property is ultimately owned by the diocese of the ECUSA. So I imagine that if an individual church ceases to be part of the diocese - or a diocese ceases to be part of the ECUSA - it will lose its property to the ECUSA.

Still, I'm there will be lawsuits over this, although it will probably be hard for individual churches to come up with enough money to get much legal representation, when compared to the big guns of the ECUSA.

[Miss Marple]

In the Methodist Church, for example, diversion to local missions is very hard to do. The district assesses each church based on a set of criteria, including size of membership, annual donations, etc.

If the church refuses to meet those goals over a long period of time, the church can be closed and the property (which is owned by the denomination and not the local congregation) can be sold.

[AppyPappy]

I imagine that if the church was getting some money, it would be hesitant to close the church. But the massive church hierarchy cannot live on the bare minimum.

[Miss Marple]

I believe this may be why they are going to try to have the Anglican Communion declare the ECUSA out of communion. The case could then be made more logically that the American denomination no longer has the right to the property.

It's a long-shot, but worth trying. It is not right that people whose donations have built those churches, in many cases for generations, be driven out while opportunistic leftists grab the real estate.

[jonefab]

The Lutheran (ELCA) Church demanded that all congregations change their constitutions to reflect that in case a congregation disbanded that the property would be held by the ELCA. I was very suspicious of this at the time and it seems for good reason. If the constitutions were not changed than that church would no longer be part of the ELCA. Me thinks it won't be long until the ELCA moves in a similar way that the Episcopalians did. The Missouri Synod is much more conservative. I just wonder who will win the next "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" prize (Lutherans or Methodists).

[Destructor]

I wonder how much longer it will be before the Presbyterian Church goes down that same twisted path?

[Pilsner]

When the southern presbyterian church split into liberal and conservative factions 30 years ago

No comparison. The Presbyterian Church is a federation of churches who own their own property, select their own officials and hire their own pastors. The "heirarchy" consists entirely of delegates sent by the churches to small regional districts called presbyteries. Those delegates send representatives to larger distircts of several presbyteries called synods, who send delegates to the general assembly. Basically it works just like the US Senate did be before direct election of Senators, when they were selected by state legislatures.

The Episcopal Church has an, err, episcopal system, meaning rule by bishops. They control the property owned by the churchs and assign clergy to the churchs, except for a few parishs which either predate the Episcopal Church, or joined from other denominations.

[Wallace T.]

The conservative clerics in the Episcopal Church, USA, had better act swiftly to set up a denomination basd on their historic beliefs and then to gain recognition from the Anglican Communion as the official representative of Anglicanism in the United States. If they dither and procrastinate, the parishes and dioceses over which they preside will continue to lose members to the Catholic Church and the evangelical denominations. By inaction, conservative Episcopalians will lose their base within their denomination.

[Miss Marple]

I am most interested in that clause about property that was forced on you. It seems to me that these groups are really about controlling the property and money, and idealogy is he tool being used to do it.

They insert some people in the seminaries and in the hierarchy, espouse more and more liberal dogma, and hope that the dissenters will leave. Once they have congregations filled mostly with liberals or those who don't care, they are pretty much free to use endowments and trust funds for whatever leftist cause they want to back.

[Aquinasfan]

Billions of dolars in real estate, trust funds, endowments, and art are a handy thing to have when you wish to advance a liberal agenda to the public.

Exactly. They can't produce anything, but they sure do know how to live off of the sweat of others. Parasites.

[wai-ming]

...prepared a request asking worldwide Anglican primates to intervene...

Gorilla tactics?