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To: hedgetrimmer
I agree with you, of course, that the world is multi-dimensional. But when you apply this thought -- that is where we part ways.

There are people who identify themselves as capitalists, and people who identify themselves as Americans. The marxist world view says there are only capitalists and socialists/communists. If you identify yourself as a capitalist, you are espousing a Marxian viewpoint. Call yourself an American and if its true, then you follow the American creed.

I identify myself as a male and as American. Two dimensions -- are they contradicting each other? Of course not.

I identify myself as a person that believes in free markets and an American. Are these contradictory? Not at all. Why? Because private property and the freedom of exchange there of are as American as apple pie.

If one asks a similar question of socialists, one comes up with an opposite answer: it is because socialists have an objective of dismantling the core American institutions and values, that they are un- and even anti-American .

We have parted with unbridled capitalism for a reason. Of the two types of goods, private and pubic, markets fail to provide the public ones. It is for that reason that we have government stepping in to supply them. The present danger is, of course, n0t the existence of the government, but that everything is declared a public good --- as in the case of fascism, where property remained in private hands but the exchange was controlled by the government. If you follow the American creed, then you know that you need to stand with your fellow Americans to help make America prosperous. I am not sure you notice, but you apply the logic of the modern liberals: as W. Buckley famously said a few decades ago, "The liberal will not argue with you --- he will suspect your motives."

That is what you essentially do: you suspect, and even accuse, me of being self-motivated as the exclusion of empathy with my fellow Americans; of not caring for their plight. That is not fair, nor valid.

Of course I care --- it's the methods of reaching the goal where I disagree with the protectionists.

Many people are telling you that a lot of Americans are out of work and suffering right now. But you have only your self interest in mind and the good of this country and the good of your fellow citizens are nothing to you. See, that's what I meant. Your assumption is false, and it is not nice to assume the worst without a foundation. That's not nice --- one of the Commandments, in fact.

But guess what? It makes more damage to you than to the ones you suspect of egotism: by assuming malice of egotism in others, you end up being more lonely than you actually are, and farther from the truth than you can be: it is clear that you can reason, but the results of reasoning depend not only on careful logic but also on the initial suppositions, and the initial suppositions you use are at variance with reality.

What is benign about trade policies that are wrenching America apart and redistributing our wealth by fiat of the WTO to other countries?

Very timely but still an ill-posed question. Nothing in this world is benign. It is often said of democracy that it's a terrible system of governance but yet as not bad as any other we know.

Nobody claims that private property and freedom of exchange (trade) are benign. What's so benign in having a misfortune of being born into a very poor family, for instance? It has worked better than any other system, however, and that is why we support it.

The question therefore is whether there is a better, more just system than free trade. You come to a correct conclusion, that free trade is terrible, because so many workers are displaced. This conclusion is correct given the model. But your model (i) views Americans as workers, and (ii) disregards job creation.

Regarding the first, you forget that Americans are not only workers but also consumers and business owners (you and your parents own businesses through the mutual funds and stock purchase programs at work, for example. The ownership of our companies has never been as broad-based as it is now. Check at the number of shareholders on record of companies such as GM and GE). Hence, if you want to argue what's good for your fellow Americans, you have to consider how EACH of the three roles ---- worker, consumer, owner --- is affected by this or that policy, including free trade. These effects are hard to quantify not only for you but for professional economists as well. As a consequence, your conclusions may differ from those reached by others; much here does lie in grey area, and we do not fully know what is right. But we know that any opinion that concentrates on one role (labor) played by Americans and disregards them as consumers and business owners is wrong.

Regarding the second point, you, as most protectionists disregard a well-documented fact that job creation is greatest precisely in those countries where job destruction is large as well, and the net effect is positive.

Finally, the net effect of what you propose is precisely what accuse others of promulgating ---- wealth distribution. Unemployment is low --- in fact, close to what until recently was considered minimal possible. There are problems in certain sectors, especially in IT (which was far from average: it had one long big party with huge salaries ever since 1960s. There is no tragedy, but the party is over). What you suggest is that all Americans should subsidize a particular group of Americans simply because that group is used to high salaries. There is nothing American about that. This is very different from my coming to your defense in the face of a foreign enemy, from standing up for your rights, etc. If you think you have a right to a certain standard of living that I must subsidize, you are socialist and disagree with CORE AMERICAN institutions.

No, I am not going to make the same mistake you committed and accuse you or suspect you of malice (there is nothing more futile than trying to guess motivations of people). You come to such awful conclusions due to the lack of knowledge. You should refrain from judgment of these matters for a long while and study the subject matter a bit more deeply --- including the facets of economic life that are entirely omitted in your picture of the world. All the free traders are one dimensional characters.

I am afraid I have turned tables on you by demonstrating that it is you who views Americans unidimensionally. You reach strong conclusions without knowledge of basic economics and should be the last one of suspecting, let alone accusing others of the lack of sophistication.

They talk of getting the cheapest price by using slave labor to produce it. There is nothing more to them.

What can I say? In view of the foregoing, this makes me only smile.

34 posted on 10/08/2003 5:04:02 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
I identify myself as a person that believes in free markets and an American

On your previous posts you really do talk a lot about capitalism. You couch your arguments in the fact that you are a capitalist and everyone that opposes you is a socialist. That is a marxian viewpoint.

You say if anyone objects to your ideas of free markets the are socialists If one asks a similar question of socialists, one comes up with an opposite answer

You do not admit the current "free market" trading that you support is not motivated by a benign government whos purpose is to preserve liberty for Americans, but rather on a cabal of socialist finance ministers, who have stated over and over again that the purpose of global trade is to "share the wealth" of the rich nations with the poor. So in fact your argument is incorrect. Your belief in the "free market" as it is applied globally through the WTO is a belief in socialism. You cannot separate the fact that trade agreements are being made by socialist ministers for Americans, who really have no say in the matter at all. You must be able to understand that when you have a group of socialists making policy, then you get socialist policy.

I agree that socialists want to dismantle core American institutions and that is what is happening with "free trade" and the WTO. The core american instution for making trade agreements is congress. Yet the "free market" way of doing things is to have the WTO make our trade agreements through a minister appointed by the president. Also, the president has fast track authority, so trade agreements never have to come up through congress anymore, the trade minister and the president do everything. They go down and meet with the G8 in Mexico or Cancun or Doha. The meetings are secret, there is no light shining in so Americans can know what they are doing. They make the agreements like GATT, volumes in size and impossible for the average American to posess or understand.How is this supporting apple pie and private property? How does this support the idea of self determination?

It doesn't. It really means that the Constitution has been usurped and enormous power has been taken from the congress(who are elected by the American people and can be removed by them if they commit transgressions) and given it over to an unelected minister and a trade body made up of socialist finance ministers. Now tell me, is that American?

How can any thinking individual support free trade as it is being implemented? You keep advocating "free market" and when any American opens the kimono, we see the "free market" is a name for an effort to dismantle congressional authority and give our right as individuals to make decisions regarding trade over to the global socialist WTO. So you can talk about the unemployment rates and stocks or whatever. Our individual rights and Constitutional authority do not exist when the WTO is involved. America cannot act unilaterally to protect itself from hostile trade practices of other WTO members, because that would be against the policy of multilateralism. Anyone who supports "free trade" through the WTO is one of those people you talked about, the people who want to dismantle core American institutions.
37 posted on 10/08/2003 8:14:43 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: TopQuark; 1rudeboy; harpseal
This Isn't Free Trade

Real free trade, consisting of unilateral lowering of trade barriers, is unheard of at the WTO. Economic freedom would leave its bureaucrats with essentially nothing to do. By politicizing trade, imposing sanctions, and enforcing bureaucratic regulations, WTO officials win praise from influential corporations and social activists. Only by extinguishing the WTO candle and restoring an unregulated, nineteenth-century-style trade regime, will the special interest moths disappear.
38 posted on 10/08/2003 8:59:58 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: TopQuark
Are these contradictory? Not at all. Why? Because private property and the freedom of exchange there of are as American as apple pie.

Does your "freedom of exchange" extend to communist countries?
79 posted on 10/08/2003 12:45:31 PM PDT by lelio
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