Madonna the mystic

Jerusalem Post ^ | 10/2/2003 | SHMULEY BOTEACH

[adam_az]

He's clearly deeply sympathetic to Jihadist Islamic terrorists, not Israelis.

[malakhi]

Everybody knows what that speech was about. Everybody knew then.

Funny, that's not what I've read.

I asked for an explicit condemnation. You haven't provided one. So I have to believe that your characterization of the Boteach's comment as a "brazen lie" is itself a brazen lie.

Pius IX was not so reticent in opposing Kulturkampf.

[Romulus]

If you could point me to reference material describing how the Catholic Church actively worked against the Nazis, I would be happy to read it.

Fair enough; I'll take you at your word. Here are some historical sources for you:

"What Pius XII Did Or Did Not Do" by Robert Graham, SJ

"A Question of Judgment: Pius XII and the Jews" by Dr. Joseph L. Lichten

Goldhagen v. Pius XII by Ronald Rychlak

"Pius XII Saved More Jews Than Schindler" by Rabbi David Dalin

[dennisw]

Hey, give us Jews just 10% the population the Catholics have. With 120 million Jews we could really call the shots, really control the planet :)

[Romulus]

You love Israelis but dislike Israel?

Human beings are a moral end; political entities are at best a means to an end.

Your sugestion that I regard Jews as Christ-killers duly noted -- and forgiven, because of your ignorance. But don't say it again.

[Romulus]

Funny, that's not what I've read.

Well by all means, tell us what you've read.

[malakhi]

Well by all means, tell us what you've read.

Why bother? You'll dismiss any source you don't like as "anti-Catholic".

[malakhi]

7. Therefore as is required by the duty of Our offices, with Our Apostolic authority We solemnly condemn them, declaring at the same time that the oath they impose is illicit and clearly sacrilegious; therefore all those who in Geneva or elsewhere are elected according to the decrees of these laws or in a similar way, by the vote of the people and with the confirmation of the civil power, and who subsequently dare to undertake the tasks of ecclesiastical ministry incur a major excommunication reserved specially to this Holy See and also incur other canonical penalties. Furthermore, they must all be avoided by the faithful according to the divine admonition, as aliens and thieves who come only to rob, kill, and destroy.

From Pius IX's encyclical Etsi Multa, 11/21/1873. Neither he nor Leo XIII had any problem encouraging Catholic civil disobedience.

A shame Pius XII didn't issue a similar encyclical, say, between 1933 and 1940.

[adam_az]

I didn't say you think that, you are again overly sensitive and take things as personal attacks.

I said it reminded me of someone who said "I hate niggers but sure like their music," someone who liked their works but hated them.... In your case you claim to support Israelis but dislike their work, Israel, that somehow either the "means" or "end" of Israel is distasteful. The OTHER meaning of end wouldn't be so, I presume, since the political means of Palestinians, targeting civillians in order to kill all of the Jews, is somehow preferable to you.

If I'm misunderstanding you, please explain.

Anyway, one reason why I never cared what the Catholic Church had to say about the Holocaust is that they didn't have the power to stop or slow it down once the Nazis had taken over Germany.

On a personal note, as far as I've been able to tell by research so far, the Nazis exterminated my entire paternal family that didn't emigrate to New York from Europe after WWI, by forcibly marching them out of town and then machinegunning them on the open road. I don't think the Pope could have done deed or said word that would have prevented this, so I have never cared about studying his position.

[beckett]

A harsh indictment...but fitting.

[DallasMike]

Thanks. I have theological differences with the Catholic Church but a tremendous admiration for many of the unpopular things that it has stood for, like the right to life. You guys got it right on abortion before we Protestants even realized that it was an issue.

Pius XII was a great man and his works saved many people's lives.

[Valin]

As recently as 60 years ago a pope watched six million Jews die and never once condemned it.

Good catch.

[Phil V.]

That comment in the article, however, is totally tangental to the articles main point. The article probably would have been more effective without it, since this is apparently an area of controversy.

With your observation in mind consider this snip from the article . . .

Islam today has lost its direction because it has lost its heart. Judaism dare not make the same error by losing its moral compass, by failing to inspire in its representatives, or to demand of its adherents, a passion for moral rectitude and ethical greatness.

With the author's words in mind I have to wonder what his(the author's) thoughts are WRT Israel's policy towards the Israeli Bedouin . . . killing crops . . . demolishing homes . . . no education . . . no water . . . no land . . .

"A passion for moral rectitude and ethical greatness!?" . . .

God is pleased with the Apple of His eye?

[rmlew]

1. Israel trates Israeli Bedouin quite well. They have a better standards of living that the Bedoiun in Jordan or Saudi Arabia.
2. Israel has always been too nice to foreign populations. Look up Amalek. Go read the Book of Joshua for God's commandments.

[Phil V.]

. . . Israel has always been too nice to foreign (???)populations . . .

Two thousand and three years ago three wise men accomanied by shepards (Bedouin) were witness to His birth. FOREIGN POPULATIONS ferchrissakes!!!!!!!!!????????

[rmlew]

I wrote:
". . . Israel has always been too nice to foreign (???)populations . . ."

Phil V responded Two thousand and three years ago three wise men accomanied by shepards (Bedouin) were witness to His birth. FOREIGN POPULATIONS ferchrissakes!!!!!!!!!????????

The Shepards were JEWISH, not Ishmalites, Edomites, or Nabateans.

[Phil V.]

When you say "foreign populations" are you not thinking "goy"? Just wondering.

[BerryessaJim]

"Madonna" is a whore. She made her fortune by degrading young women. Our media is responsible for that. Thus end the reading of the lesson.

[Phil V.]

BTW . . . perhaps you might consider publishing as BREAKING NEWS your unique "discovery" of the Holy Land's exclusively Jewish demiographics 2003 years ago.(end of sacasm)

One would have thought that the segment of non-Jewish inhabitants would have graduated from being seen as "foreign populations" to being seen as "homies" over the span of 2003 years.

[Tribune7]

As recently as 60 years ago a pope watched six million Jews die and never once condemned it.

That's sort of like saying the chief rabbi of Rome watched six million Jews die and never once condemned it. It's equally true and equally irrelevant.