Camp Lejeune Marines Try Out New Rifle

Marine Corps News ^ | Oct. 2, 2003 | Lance Cpl. Adam C. Schnell

[Ex-Dem]

CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C.(Oct. 2, 2003) -- CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. From the days of Marines wielding muskets, to the current day fully automatic machine guns, weapons in the Marine Corps continue to change to accommodate the needs of battle. The Marine Corps is now adding a new chapter to the history of its service rifles.

For the first time since being chosen as the Marine Corps future rifle, Marines assigned to 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment here were issued and fired their new M-16A4 service rifles recently.

The M-16A4, the fourth generation of the M-16 service rifle, has been in the testing phase for the Marine Corps along with the M-4 carbine rifle more than two years. In August 2002, former Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James L. Jones decided to stay with the tried and true M-16 verses the M-4.

The Marines are looking forward to testing their new rifles out on the range and in the field, said 1st Lt. John M. Jones, executive officer for F Company, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment.

Getting new equipment can be great morale boosters for anyone, but for a military unit receiving new weapons, they need confidence in using them in combat. Gaining confidence begins with training and some times this process is very long.

The rifle is a little bit heavier, but shoots the same as the M-16A2 we used in Iraq, said Sgt. Anthony J. Stewart, a platoon commander for F Company, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment.

Every Marine must not only learn how to use the new features, but they also must fire the weapon enough so be confident with its abilities.

This new rifle is almost identical in appearance and firing using the same ammunition and existing attachments, like the M-203 grenade launcher. However, once removing the carrying handle the weapon is capable of providing a lot more potential.

Once the handle is removed, an integrated rail system is exposed. This system allows any optic, laser or night vision sight with a rail grabber to slide into place, said Cpl. Randy J. Dunkel Jr., noncommissioned officer in charge of the armory for Headquarters and Support Company, 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines.

The new rail system is great because you can just take off the handle and put any sight on it, said Jones.

With the new advancement comes change in the way the rifle is stored in the armory.

Everything is going to have to change to accommodate the new rifles, said Dunkel. We're going through some changes right now to make storing the rifles much easier.

As the new rifles are being delivered the older versions will receive an inspection and sent to Marine Corps Logistics Base, Albany, Ga., where they will either be destroyed or redistributed as needed.

The M-16A4 will be better to have in the long run, because in combat you can put on so many new pieces of equipment to make life easier, added Dunkel.

[Ex-Dem]

The reviews for the M-4 from the specops guys that served in Afghanistan weren't all positive (accuracy/range issues?).

Picture of the M-16A4 w/picatinny rail:

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[45Auto]

Stoner SR 25 long range, chambered in 7.62 Nato, aka .308 Win

[JoeSixPack1]

Looks pretty complicated. Lots of toys = lots of chances to jam.

[SirChas]

Now there is a rifle!!!

[SJSAMPLE]

It's basically the same old M16A2 with a flat-top rail in lieu of the carry handle. Nothing special to cause jamming or any operational problems. The M16-series is gas operated, so additional weight doesn't affect the operation of the rifle. Civilians have been using the same basic rifle (in semi) for over a decade with no problems, and the current M4 uses the same rail system with no ill effects.

Additionally, the night vision equipment, daylight scopes, laser aiming equipment and flashlights make the weapon even more versatile.

[Ex-Dem]

LOL! That thing's almost literally got everything except the kitchen sink. With all those do-hickies hanging off of it, you might as well add a siren on to announce you're coming.

[Texas_Jarhead]

LOL, everything but the kitchen sink

[300winmag]

The reviews for the M-4 from the specops guys that served in Afghanistan weren't all positive (accuracy/range issues?).

Their complaints boiled down to ammunition being less lethal than desired at long ranges. The rifles themselves got positive reviews.

In a sense, the M-4/M-16 is a victim of its own success. The weapon is so accurate and easy to shoot, that a decent shooter can expect to get solid hits out to 600 meters with a scoped rifle. But the 62 gr. projectile is running out of steam at that range. A hit at that range can be critical, and yet not instantly lethal. That's disconcerting because you want the bad guy to crumple and not get up again.

Even in the era of full-bore battle rifles like the Garand, 99.9% of engagements were at under 200 meters. The 30-06 round has plenty of killing power at even 1000 yards, but only snipers with scope-equiped weapons ever fired at targets at that range.

Now with better, cheaper, more compact optics, the inherent accuracy of the M-16 family allows for accurate shots in combat to 600-800 meters. Shots that long show up in desert/mountain fighting, whereas most combat is at much closer range. A competent shooter can expect to make consistent hits at long ranges, but has to take into account the reduced lethality at that range. The hits are there, but the instant killing power isn't.

The answer is to get more scoped M-14s into the hands of troops that will be firing at those long ranges. The laws of physics just won't allow M-16 ammo to be effective as desired at those ranges.

[JoeSixPack1]

My knowledge of m-16's dates back to 1973. I hated them, my 14 was much more reliable. Not much has changed my mind over the years, although I was informed here on FR a year or 2 ago that the jamming problem has been eradicated.

Once bit, twice shy.

I hope the current crop of gyrenes put it to good use.

Semper Fi

[Ex-Dem]

Well, the jamming problem apparently hasn't been eliminated. As I recall, what led to the soldiers from the 507th Maintenance getting captured was the fact that several of their M-16s jammed during the ambush. Granted, these weren't frontline troops and there was probably quite a bit of sand floating around.

[donmeaker]

The 5.56mm bullet, either the old, or new versions, need to be traveling at 2700 feet per second when it hits flesh. If it does, then it yaws (or pitches, doesnt matter which) and breaks in two at the cannelure, then the back half fragments. This creates a softball sized hole in flesh, usually fatal if a solid body hit. The M-4 has a 14.5 inch barrel, and only maintains that velocity out to 100 meters. the M-16a2 or a4 has a longer barrel, and will keep that velocity out to 300 meters.

At longer ranges, the bullet goes through.... a 5.56mm hole in and out the other side. This is rarely lethal.

Loss of blood is not the prefered effect at short range. For example, Lavoisier, the French scientist who discovered Oxygen was beheaded by guillotine. As his last experiment, he blinked his eyes for 15 seconds after having his head cut off. The point is, loss of blood doesn't stop quickly. To stop you want to penetrate the brain or spinal column, and the M-16 round doesnt do that well. the 7.62 will, and so will the .45ACP, or a 12 gauge with slugs or even number 1 shot. (buckshot will also penetrate, but will make fewer holes, so number 1 shot is more effective)

All this changes if the enemy has body armor!

At long range the chance of hitting something is low, so you either use the many bullets technique (the SAW M249 does that well, but at long range the rounds will be .223 inches in diameter, in one side and out the other, so it takes a lot of hits to have good effect!) or a mortar. I like mortars! One bullet, many casualties.

Best would be a service rifle that allows conversion to the optimum round for your situation. I also like a bit of armor on the front end, and the added weight helps if you are the fire support element, though dragging a 16 pound rifle around is a bit wearing.

[Kenny Bunk]

Nown that is a weapon!

[PokeyJoe]

Kill a distant target, and all of his buddies will shoot back at you.

Wound a distant target, and four of his buddies will rush to put him on a stretcher, and six will try and protect the four carrying him.

Other than that, I agree with your comment. =)

[PokeyJoe]

yeah, you still gotta clean 'em to fire 'em.

[donmeaker]

I read the report about jamming, but it was in the same report as "Jessica kept firing till she ran out of ammunition". In fact later reports indicate that she was knocked out from a car accident through the entire battle.

Please, do not take this as a knock on her. She was there, I was not, all praise to all our soldiers! Just the early reports were a bit enthusiastic, like you would expect if they came from an Iraqi who wanted to suck up to the new conquerors.

[Kenny Bunk]

You call that a rifle? Where is the Captain Midnight Decoder Ring? The integrated phone?

[Kenny Bunk]

You call that a rifle? Where is the Captain Midnight Decoder Ring? The integrated phone?

[donmeaker]

I have been awarded patent 6,079,138 for the folded delayed blowback operating system for automatic handheld weaponry. It gives you a 24 inch barrel in a 28 inch rifle, and later developments permit using two magazines, downward ejection, and automatic switching from the empty magazine to the full one.

It also lets you convert from 5.56 to 7.62 to .45 to 12 gauge in 10 seconds-change barrel and magazines.

Looking for a sugar daddy to fund development!

[Abogado]

Patent issued June 27, 2003...