Tribal leaders fire back at Schwarzenegger over 'fair share' ad

I live part time in the Coachella Valley (Palm Springs). There are 6 Indian casinos in that area, so I see it first hand.

If you go into a casino and buy a product, have a drink or a meal, you will be charged the standard CA state sales tax rate on you purchase. However, big surprise, the Indians keep this money, while the typical customer thinks they are simply paying the state sales tax.

If you stay at an Indian hotel, they will charge you the standard room tax of 12 to 15%. Once again, big surprise, this money is not going to the local city. It is kept by the Indians.

Folks, it is the Indians dirty little secret, and the average casino/hotel patron thinks it is just the state/city taking their pound of flesh.

Then, the local cities have to beg to get the Indian tribes to contribute to the upkeep of the surrounding city that provides them with all their services.

If an Indian lives on the reservation, that Indian does not have to pay the CA vehicle license tax which was just tripled by Gray Davis.

As for free education, well it isn't quite free but they do get to pay the same in-state rates as a regular CA resident and taxpayer.

This whole system stinks. The biggest tragedy of all is that Gray Davis just signed into law a bill that will give the Indians the right to declare enormous amounts of lands throughout the state as sacred grounds, thereby stopping or limiting their development by the legitimate owners. Of course, I am confident those same Indians will be willing to look the other way for a substantial fee.

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I live part time in the Coachella Valley (Palm Springs). There are 6 Indian casinos in that area, so I see it first hand.

Soon to have a seventh, since the Torres-Martinez group got their compact.

If you go into a casino and buy a product, have a drink or a meal, you will be charged the standard CA state sales tax rate on you purchase. However, big surprise, the Indians keep this money, while the typical customer thinks they are simply paying the state sales tax.

The tribe doesn't get any of the sales tax money, that is paid directly by the casino to the state. A simple phone call to the State Franchise Tax Board can verify this.

If you stay at an Indian hotel, they will charge you the standard room tax of 12 to 15%. Once again, big surprise, this money is not going to the local city. It is kept by the Indians.

They're not required to charge the tax unless they make an agreement with the city, and if they make such an agreement, they've paid the tax. A call to Temecula verified that Pechanga pays the agreed upon room tax rate. I don't know the details on the Spa Hotel and Casino, for example, but it would not be surprising that the Palm Springs City Council never signed a room tax agreement with the tribe. Then again, considering how much of Palm Springs is actually on the tribe's land.. Well, in any event, Milanovich (the chairman of the tribe) wouldn't give anything he wasn't forced to.

Folks, it is the Indians dirty little secret, and the average casino/hotel patron thinks it is just the state/city taking their pound of flesh.

The average casino/hotel is paying that pound of flesh to the proper authorities.

Then, the local cities have to beg to get the Indian tribes to contribute to the upkeep of the surrounding city that provides them with all their services.

Absolutely no argument there - the medical services just to the Spa Casino alone has got to top over a million dollars a year. Recently down at Barona I watched a life-flight helicopter land and pick up a casino patron to airlift to a hospital. And all I could think about, aside from hoping the person would be well, was there is another couple grand that the tax payers get to pay because the casino is sitting in the middle of nowhere.

If an Indian lives on the reservation, that Indian does not have to pay the CA vehicle license tax which was just tripled by Gray Davis.

Vehicles which do not leave reservation land are not subject to being registered. Since they never touch California's highways, they shouldn't be taxed anyway. I've no argument against this law, however, people who abuse the law (IE: the chairman of San Manuel) should be fined and/or jailed.

As for free education, well it isn't quite free but they do get to pay the same in-state rates as a regular CA resident and taxpayer.

They are California residents and taxpayers, except for what income they get from tribal enterprises, earned on their tribal land. They don't have to pay sales tax on something bought from their tribal enterprises while on their land. Again, something I can't argue against. When they leave the reservation and erroniously claim they don't have to pay sales tax at stores, that's where my anger comes in.

This whole system stinks. The biggest tragedy of all is that Gray Davis just signed into law a bill that will give the Indians the right to declare enormous amounts of lands throughout the state as sacred grounds, thereby stopping or limiting their development by the legitimate owners. Of course, I am confident those same Indians will be willing to look the other way for a substantial fee.

The Indian Commission is the one who sets where sacred sites are and controls the approval/disapproval process. I know of no tribe that supported that law, and many demanded a veto. It was one of those wonderful Democrat tricks that was doing 'the best thing for the tribes.' Instead, it put California's developemnt in the hands of appointments made by governors who do not represent the tribes of California, or the American Indian population of the state. Several commission members aren't even members of tribes recognized by the federal government, or other tribes. Others dispute the claims by the commission members as to their tribal bonifieds.

Everyone should remember that members of out of state tribes (especially the Navajo) outnumber California's tribes by a margin of at least 10 to one. Los Angeles alone has more out of state tribal members than the entire population of federally recognized California tribes.

Of which the "Augustine" tribe has ONE member, I understand

Remember, this point of view was brought up by my son, not me. The local Indian casino, to my knowledge, does not get taxed on its income from gambling. The casino pays its tribe members 14,000 per month, tax free. That to me, is certainly free money.

If the tribe sends its members to college, and pays for it, that again to me, is a free college education. The Federal Government made its treaties and those treaties have to be honored. The States have negotiated their own deals with the Indian Casinos, and in California at least, they gave away a lot, and got little.

I think the college vote is the potential huge back breaking straw in this election. My point is that this is a argument that can be raised and aimed at college students and their parents in an effort to get votes. And the campaign is in the latter stages and there wouldn't be time for the Indian Casinos to effective counter the issue.

Remember, this point of view was brought up by my son, not me. The local Indian casino, to my knowledge, does not get taxed on its income from gambling. The casino pays its tribe members 14,000 per month, tax free. That to me, is certainly free money.

The casino is taxed at 100 percent of it's profits by the tribe. That's how it works at all casinos. The tribe then pays the tribal members, after taking out money for the tribal programs. Since it is one tribal member paying another on tribal lands, yes, it is not subject to tax. Is that free money? My mind is still split two ways on it...

If the tribe sends its members to college, and pays for it, that again to me, is a free college education. The Federal Government made its treaties and those treaties have to be honored. The States have negotiated their own deals with the Indian Casinos, and in California at least, they gave away a lot, and got little.

Two issues there.. The tribe paying for the college education was one of the points of the Indian gaming act. A decade ago, that Indian student likely would have been on welfare and qualified for financial aid. Today, it's paid for by the tribe. That, at least, is a good thing, getting people off the public dole and as Republicans, we should support people using enterprise to get ahead...

But as to the compacts, yes, I think the state gave away the store. However, they didn't have much choice, since the voters approved a model compact that gave away even more.

The compacts should be re-negociated with the thought in mind that the Indian Gaming Act was not made to create millionaires, nor create undue hardship on local communities. I especially want to see water rights included in the compacts before these casinos and their mega hotels drain the underground water supplies. Ghads, it's hard to articulate exactly what I want without sounding like a money-grubbing Democrat who wants to crush someone who had the audacity to become successful.

I think the college vote is the potential huge back breaking straw in this election. My point is that this is a argument that can be raised and aimed at college students and their parents in an effort to get votes. And the campaign is in the latter stages and there wouldn't be time for the Indian Casinos to effective counter the issue.

You've seen but the tip of the iceberg in what money could be brought to bear in a political battle with the tribes. Between their own warchests and those of the corporations and off-shore entities that finance those casinos (and other tribal enterprises), a hundred million could be spent in a week. College students are predominantly Democrat and would simply see it as being racist, the parents are too busy working to pay for their child's education to pay much attention. I don't disagree that it is an idea to get potential votes, but I do think that it is one with huge risks of backfiring with little payback.

Another consideration is that the casinos and the tribes have become the fastest growing sector in the way of employment, with particular attention to hiring people who are on welfare and getting them off of it. They generally pay much better wages than the colleges pay their support staff, and in return, garner incredible loyalty. Add in all the companies that do business with the casinos.. Well, they are an economic powerhouse in a state with few such examples. Treading carefully with this special interest is recommended for anyone.

If the Indians have enough money to give millions to candidates that want to raise my taxes then the Indians should be subject to those taxes as well.

As sovereign governments, tribes do not pay taxes and they pay nothing into the state's general fund. If they are sovereign governments then why are candidates allowed to take contributions from them?

Well, my concept of "taxation" is a Federal, State, or local "tax," and not something imposed by a tribe on its members. Otherwise, I want to thank you for your very informative and insightful response. I hope a lot of people read it because there is a lot to learn from it.

LOL! In the Fresno County area, there are Indian names of Sample and Stankowitz.

Well, my concept of "taxation" is a Federal, State, or local "tax," and not something imposed by a tribe on its members. Otherwise, I want to thank you for your very informative and insightful response. I hope a lot of people read it because there is a lot to learn from it.

Thanks, I try. :)

Well, a landed tribe runs social services, police-like services and fire services (when permitted) on that land, as well as sewage, water, etc, all the general services a town would supply. That they would tax their economic developments is much better than getting freebies from the Feds. But, like you, I think there is a limit as to how much of a windfall they should get.. I especially think, just like if one town impacts another, that there should be fair compensation for joint expenses. And my mind rebels at the idea as well, because we're punishing success, just like the Democrats like to.

I told the tribes that getting involed in this recall was stupid and would come to haunt them, and I'm being proved right. They've demonstrated to California that there are many tribes that have just way too much money sitting around, and made a target of themselves.

You are SO right! Four million to Bustamante and McClintock campaigns (three and one respectively). My question is what happened to all the needy Indians who could use that money being handed out to candidates!

Ping. Here's another good one, Phi. Especially check out posts from kingu. Please ping any other interested FReepers.

I'm all for re-negociating the compacts. I told the tribes that getting involed in this recall was stupid and would come to haunt them, and I'm being proved right. They've demonstrated to California that there are many tribes that have just way too much money sitting around, and made a target of themselves.

Check this thread Campaign donation lawsuit challenges Indian sovereignty

People are going to start to question why three people counts as a tribe, or why 29 people make nearly 200 million dollars a year, or why a chairman who earns more than a million dollars a year (in salary) plus tribal distributions (nearly half a million) has to skirt the law and 'purchase' a luxury car on the reservation to avoid paying taxes.

And you are looking at one of them right here. If these tribes do not pay taxes to the State or have to abide by the laws of the State they are in then why are they voting in our State elections and contributing to candidates?

My question is what happened to all the needy Indians who could use that money being handed out to candidates!

For those tribes that have successful gaming and not too large a population, they're doing great. For those tribes who are huge, not well placed to benefit from gaming, or prevented from using gaming because of a lack of a compact (or other problems), their lives are still usually sub-third world, unless some program or another took pity on them long enough to help them a little bit.