Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

[Lorianne]

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________

Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses

In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.

One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".

The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.

Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.

The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".

In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".

Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.

The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.

[Clintons a commie]

Since these "novelties" (like permanent deacons, and the Anglican dispensation) were approved by two popes, am I correct in assuming that Pius XII (who also changed the liturgy) was the last "real" pope to you?

No, these aren't matters of faith. But a Pope can make a prudential error. It has happened countless times in the past, and I have no doubt that a later Pope will correct most of the abuses(I'm not entirely convinced that the Anglican dispensation is a problem, but permanent deacons, communion in the hand, altar girls, eucharistic ministers,etc. surely are abuses that need to be curtailed and the god centeredness of the liturgy needs to be restored).

[Clintons a commie]

http://www.maternalheart.com/library/emasculation.htm

[wideawake]

I'm sure that this will be taken as a smart a$$ question, but it is only partially so.

Admitting it is the first step.

What Biblical citation do we have for the banning of clapping and dancing during the worship of God?

There are many times and occasions for worshipping God. Not all these times and occasions are the Mass.

If you could cite the clapping and dancing taking place at the Last Supper, we could have a more directed discussion.

And if there is one that is specific, I'll be the first to proclaim my ignorance (and if you want, I'll do it on this forum)

What is quite interesting is that there is no reference in any of the discussions of formal worship in either Testament to clapping or dancing being included in either the temple service of the Old Law or in the supper of the Lord in the New.

[Desdemona]

What is a black mass?

Something pagan. I'm not exactly sure. I'm not up on the pagan rites.

I do know that there are a lot more important problems dealt with in this document than girl altar servers. Kind of interesting that that topic gets all the press, when it started out as an abuse, was an exception that was pushed to the norm and is being put back to rights.

The poor boys don't have anything to themselves anymore. Frankly, for Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday you need boys. All the stuff that has to be carried is heavy.

[bat1816]

I would be quite happy to see the Church return to a more traditional mass without the pop music and boomboxes, the live band entertainment, the childish skits that are supposed to teach us a lesson, the holding hands and hugging your neighbor so we can all feel good, etc......
I always hated those type of masses.

[Clintons a commie]

You're welcome! McLucas has written several other articles, and has given talks at Wanderer Forums and Keep the Faith conferences. He's one of the finest priests in America today.

[hilaryrhymeswithrich]

I was really addressing the more general question of if I asa Catholic woman felt stifled by the Church by not seeing female alter servers. It doesn't stifle me or threaten me. I guess I feel respected and honored in enough ways to not get my panties in a know about alter girls.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Being a Protestant, I don't truly have that much at stake in the Church's decisions. But, I do believe that all churches need to strengthen in today's world.

I do think that boys serving God as altar boys, is a good step for those who eventually wish to join the priesthood. So, I don't see the purpose for girls doing this. I also believe that the Church must decide what traditions are acceptable, and draw the line. They must protect themselves from the outside world.

[Clintons a commie]

No problem. I hope you enjoy it.

[wideawake]

Thank you for your insight. You have a marvelously succinct way of expressing complex thoughts.

[sinkspur]

but permanent deacons, communion in the hand, altar girls, eucharistic ministers,etc. surely are abuses that need to be curtailed and the god centeredness of the liturgy needs to be restored).

These are not "abuses." You should stay in the Tridentine Indult and leave the rest of us alone.

[wideawake]

Interesting take.

There is a certain leftism in the Church, IMO.

I think this perception derives from what is called the "preferential option for the poor."

It is often abused, and it lends itself very easily to leftisty distortion.

The Church helps many but there is too much lefty self-sacrifice for my tastes.

The lefties are rarely the ones doing the self-sacrificing.

[Clintons a commie]

These are not "abuses." You should stay in the Tridentine Indult and leave the rest of us alone. Hey, pal, the folks who love the Old Mass are the people who are never left alone and have to go through many inconveniences and accusations of "schism" and "disobedience". So don't talk about "leaving the rest of us alone". The bullcrap that people have to go through who just want to worship God in a reverent fashion(and this includes many people who attend the Novus Ordo) has been going on for close to forty years. It's been a complete disaster for the Church in her catechetics, in her discipline, in her evangelical mission and in nearly every other department. Name one area of the Church that is stronger today than it was when the Immemorial Mass was the norm. Not some baloney, but statistics. Vocations are dryed up, conversions have gone way down(and we lose something like 1,000 people A DAY to Jehovah's Witnesses and Adventists in Latin America), and the Church is suffering the Passion of Christ right now because of unfaithful Bishops, Priests and Religious, and the complete indifference of most of the laity(who, according to a recent Gallup poll, only 20% believe in the Church's teaching on Transubstantiation).

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, only the consecrated hands of a priest should touch the host.The Council of Trent reiterates this, as does every single doctor of the Church. Instead of reading the NewChurch blather that you seem to love so much, pick up the Catechism of the Council of Trent, or The Holy Eucharist by St. Alphonse.

The reality is that, being entrenched in the bureacracy of the AmChurch, you just can't face the facts. Wake up! Stop calling a wasteland a renewal.

[Lorianne]

Thanks for the heads-up. It's hard to tell sometimes.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Thanks.

[sinkspur]

You mean well. Have a good night.

[Clintons a commie]

And you haven't answered one thing proposed by me or anyone else about the problems in the Church.

All the same, good night to you too.

[Romulus]

as if taking center stage and focusing attention on themselves.

I'll build on this observationby pointing out the theatre-style seating (you can't call it orientation) of so many new or recogfigured "worship spaces". The implicit message here is that all lines of sight are not unified and directed to a point outside the physical building but are instead folded inward on an event wholly contained by the structure: IOW, what happens here stays here. It's a design that inculcates the notions of alienation, solipsism, and self-regard, over the concepts of universal communion.

[sinkspur]

And you haven't answered one thing proposed by me or anyone else about the problems in the Church.

What's the point? You won't change your mind, and I'm certainly not going to change mine.

You see the glass as half empty; I see it as half-full. I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are.

But, every trad I've ever met has to trash the Novus Ordo Church in order to be "right," so I expect nothing less.

[sinkspur]

It's a design that inculcates the notions of alienation, solipsism, and self-regard, over the concepts of universal communion.

Sheesh!! Talk about silly.