Court bans religious gifts to classmates

The Washington Times ^ | September 21, 2003 | Julia Duin

[yonif]

Kindergartners and first-graders may not distribute to their classmates gifts that bear a religious message, according to a ruling by a federal appeals court.

The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals recently ruled in favor of a New Jersey elementary school in forbidding a boy from giving out pencils with the message "Jesus loves the little children" with a heart symbol substituted for the word love.

[gitmo]

Jesus (God) is being kicked out of every human nook and cranny. He will have the last laugh though, as He is landlord of heaven and can take in who He wants.

I don't think He's laughing.

[f.Christian]

Now in the mall, I looked straight ahead at the Chase cash bank, where there were some 100 people cowering; screaming, some hysterically started to run out of the bank and down the hall, as now the mall was rapidly filling up with thick black smoke. I was hanging onto this firefighter for dear life, while telling him, “You cannot go in there - that place is exploding down around our heads!" He looked at me and in the calmest manner said, “Honey it's going to be okay, its my job. You just get out of here." He asked me if I new where the Borders book store was and I said yes, so he said, “Go there and get out as fast as you can”. By this time he had a whole battalion behind him and they went in towards the lobby. I started for the Borders at top speed, while hearing secondary explosions going off above my head, almost like an .08 gage gun or larger. All this made me want to hit the floor and all I could think was, "What in God's name is happening up there?"

I found myself next to a man who is taking out a cigarette, all the time while we both were running. I was thinking, "I could sure use one of those right now!" He tried to light it with very shaky hands at a dead run, when a Port Authority security guard (directing people to safety) said in a very Brooklyn-ish accent, ... “Hey buddy this is a no smoking zone! You can't light that down here!” The man looked back at the guard, aghast, and I'm sure I had the same look on my face! The man said, “You have to be f-ing kidding me! This place is burning down around us, we are all going to die, and by God I am going to have my last cigarette before I go!” I managed at least one laugh that morning, as it was funny as hell, and I wished I could have stopped to get a cigarette from him myself. But the mood quickly turned serious again, as I came upon two portly grandmothers in their late 60's or early 70's; they're holding onto each other, crying, unable to keep up with the mass exodus. The explosions above our heads on the plaza were scaring them and they kept stopping. I grabbed one of their hands and told them to hold on and keep up. Dragging them behind me, I told them to worry about any resulting medical problems later - for now we had to get out of there! I thought to myself, "If I can just get out, we can get to a hospital if someone starts to stroke out."

[middie]

The Northwest Ordiance??? You've got a serious problem with that one. What in the Wide-Wide-World-of-Sports does either the N.W. Ordinance or--for that matter, the Congress or a speech by President Washington circa 1786 have to do with the question? If that's your best shot, well, it's a case of dueling with an unarmed man.

[AppyPappy]

The freedom of speech, which is what this case represents.

[middie]

Thanks, precisely my point.

[gitmo]

Abandon your rights, Ye who enter these gates.

[glory]

Yeah, the only problem with your logic is that anything purchased for a 4 yr old is done by the parent and likely chosen by the parent so what is your point? A parent will choose the clothes a 4 yr old wears too--should a Muslim parent be chastized for using his 4 yr old as a "surrogate" when he sends his daughter to school in a hajib?
Should she be forced to take it off so she does not force her religious ideals on other students?
Perhaps a Baptist child should not be allowed to wear anything with Veggie Tales since the videos promote Christian values?
Perhaps Catholic children should not show any pictures of themselves in First Communion atire to their friends? Heck, perhaps they shouldn't even wear crosses around their necks? After all we wouldn't want them to be a "surrogate" for the parents beliefs now would we?

Now, for your abortion comment. Abortion is a political issue. It truly has no place in the pre kinder/kinder classroom. It has roots in sexual behavior which is inappropriate for children this age. A teacher would be well within good judgement to not allow such items in a room.I could even see not allowing very graphic religious images(Jesus on the cross may be troubling for a 4 yr old never exposed to Christianity) or religious literature that isolates and makes children feel bad for what their parents have taught them(I'm talking only my religion is right stuff). Jesus loves me pencil during share time when all the other children are sharing stuff is hardly offensive. If the mother had then interjected asking the children i they knew who Jesus was and all that, then maybe it would have been crossing a line. Look, either you let Christian children be Christian children in the schools or you banish all religious expression in the schools(including athiestic views). You don't accept the tax dollars of Christian parents and then tell them their children can not express their deeply held beliefs anywhere on public property. If you wish that our schools were Christian-free, kick us all out and be sure to refund us our school tax money on the way out the door. Until then, these children should be allowed the same religious expression as a Muslim child wearing her hajib would because prolestizing in such a manner is a mandate nearly uniformly in Christian doctrine--it is not a minority practice of some backwoods faction.

Look, nobody is saying to give Christian children a seperate forum to prolestize, but if a Christian child does so in the confines of a legitamate school activity or assignment, how can you have a problem with it? Why is every other manner of expression sanctioned, condoned, and encouraged(under the guise of diversity) but if a Christian child dares express love, appreciation, or enthusiam about his deeply held religious beliefs he should be gagged, punished, and ridiculed? I'm only saying that as long as we continue teaching the diversity doctrine in schools, this applies to ALL students, including the Christian ones. To disallow Christian beliefs is to disallow Muslim one, Buddhist ones, and even athiestic ones too. To accomadate Muslim, Buddhist, and athiestic beliefs and practices is to accomadate Christian beliefs and practices too. Liberals have been using a double standard for a long time when it comes to diversity issues and some of the athiests and other sorts on this board usually go along out of what I can only believe is their shared hatred for Christianity.

[mongrel]

This headline by the Times is poorly written, IMO. There is an important distinction between a court telling a student he can't do something and a court telling a student that a teacher can prohibit him from doing something. I think the ruling was more the latter than the former.

So religious materials being handed out was not prohibited. The rights of teachers to prohibit this was affirmed. That may not change the assessment of the situation for some of you, but there is a big difference between the two.

[Husker24]

I spose they are free to hand out dildos.

[disclaimer]

If I wanted my kids to get religion in school, I would send them to a private religious school...Promoting your brand of religion to kids in a public grade school is part of free speech?

Your children ARE getting religion from school - even if you don't want to acknowledge it.

Secularism and humanism is being promoted in public schools with subjects like evolution and death studies to name a few. They're all theories since science cannot address those realms but only guess. I think the real zealots are the ones trying to squash speech and deny God.

It is common courtesy to keep your religious activities and comments out of my childs face.

Good luck with that philosophy; religion sets the basis for civilization - it can't be eradicated without offending someone and causing conflicts. Our nation was founded on Christian principles, and it's still functioning on that premise to a degree. As we more further from Christian standards, you will wish for what we once had.

There shouldn't be government schools, that's the real issue here.

[hardhead]

It doesn't bother ME per se. Read my post a little closer, that He is the landlord of heaven. He even told us that we would be persecuted because of Him. I am at a point in my life that I am through apologizing because I believe in God. I, and I assume you and every other believer in the Kingship of Jesus do not have to worry. I will tell you one thing, though. I am not taking any steps backward. It took me too long in life to gain my faith and a few knotheads who govern from the bench aren't going to stop me or influence me in any way.

[tpaine]

I left District 26 grade school in '49..
If ANYone, child, parent or teacher, had ran around our school promoting any specific type of religion, some sore noses would have resulted at the next PTA meeting.
It never would have gotten to court in those days.
65 -tpaine-

If you are right, your schools were intolerant even then.

It's 'intolerent' for a parent to object to having others religions brought into a public school to influence his child? Are you daft?
My catholic mother would have been outraged if I would have been 'promoted' by protestants in kindergarden, -- and vice versa.

I received a small copy of the New Testament at my public school. So did my classmates. I wonder which one of us had the most common experience; your cosmopolitan liberalism or my Middle American patriotism and love of God and country?

District 26 was in White Bear Lake, Minn, hardly cosmopolitian... - And I doubt many in kids in middle america had bibles placed on their desks in public schools. -- Whose bible was used?

[BJungNan]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I wish I was back in school every time I hear about these rulings. The first thing I would do is get as many of the banned gifts together and pass them out to everyone.

We had a saying back then,
QUESTION AUTHORITY

Apparently they are not teaching this in school anymore.

[PurVirgo]

I'm being honest when I say I don't know how.

[tpaine]

What freedom have I demanded be curtailed?
-tpaine-

AppyPappy wrote:
The freedom of speech, which is what this case represents.


BS... You're out of your gourd. Prove you point or shut up.

[tpaine]

Good point.
Could you imagine the reaction if a little kid was handing out "Abortion is Free Choice" labeled pencils?
61 -tpaine-

glory wrote:
Yeah, the only problem with your logic is that anything purchased for a 4 yr old is done by the parent and likely chosen by the parent so what is your point?


That was my point..
Your 'counterpoints' are more on the order of a sermon than being debateable, so I'll pass on further comment. Thanks.

[narses]

A "culture war" ping! Perhaps condoms with pictures of Madonna and Brit on them would be more acceptable to the modernist courts?

[INVAR]

The Northwest Ordiance??? You've got a serious problem with that one.

Why exactly? I provided PROOF to correct your statement regarding the permission of promoting Christian values, virtue and morality.

What in the Wide-Wide-World-of-Sports does either the N.W. Ordinance or--for that matter, the Congress or a speech by President Washington circa 1786 have to do with the question?

Here was your statement to refresh your memory:

"This sort of prostelization has never been permitted in my knowledge."

My two examples are evidence that in-fact the type of proselytizing you suggest was never permitted - was INDEED permitted, and even ENCOURAGED by our Founders. In-fact, when you read our true history - you find that it was EXPECTED.

If you want an answer to this question you posed: What then would be the response of all those sanctimonious posters who would object to something they believe is not appropriate for a class like the one mentioned here? here is your answer:

Your question supposes that any promotion of Christian values/virtues and principles is on an equal footing with debased and wicked or secular/humanistic/unGodly morals and virtues. Such an idea is and was considered absurd by our Forebears. To prohibit any promotion of Christian/Biblical ideals and morality in order to prohibit any possibility of perverted values being also promoted is to insist we remove the entire foundation upon which we were established.

In-short, having NO promotion of biblical values or virtues INVITES the establishment of secular-Humanistic values that now plague our culture. All you have to do is look at our public school's to see the fruit of what happens when you prohibit any promotion of biblical values in the classroom, or the nation for that matter.

It proves we in America are no longer of one mind and one people with a common set of goals and expectations in our citizen-conduct because our Founders built and established our Foundation upon the understanding it would only last as long as We The People were of a moral and Religious mindset.

If that's your best shot, well, it's a case of dueling with an unarmed man.

Amazing that even among Conservatives, our true history is a moot weapon to even be considered. It's how most end up being conquered in such arrogance. Truth my friend is a weapon, as sharp as any sword. If we cannot wield it, or refuse to - then everything we were built upon as a Republic is lost.

[AppyPappy]

The kid wanted to hand out pencils. The government declared he couldn't because they disagreed with the content even though the content is not deemed offensive in normal speech.

[Mulder]

What if 3 million students had the same response as Andrew Jackson did when faced with a Supreme Court ruling he didn't like?

What if 3 million students said "they have made their decision, now let them enforce it"?, and gave each other religious gifts.