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1 posted on 09/19/2003 10:05:29 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: AAABEST; Abundy; Uncle Bill; billbears; Victoria Delsoul; Fiddlstix; fporretto; Free Vulcan; ...
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2 posted on 09/19/2003 10:05:49 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Sir Gawain
Considering how soon this post-dated The Civil War, this was a considered statement. Think of it as a way to still allow a state to sucede, but refuse to let any of it's population go with it. In the post-bellum aftermath, noone was terribly keen on state's rights anymore.
3 posted on 09/19/2003 10:09:18 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (There are two certainties. Death and Texas.)
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To: Sir Gawain
Any person born in [the territories] to parents who were not Citizens of an individual State could not claim State citizenship by birth or naturalization. Since these individuals were born under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government of the United States, that government claimed the authority to make them statutory citizens of the United States (citizens by statute). However, that government could not, by statute or decree, make these individuals Citizens of a State.

Is there an actual reference for this, or is it just the author's conclusion? Because it seems highly incongruous to me that Congress can make state citizens out of foreigners, via the naturalization clause, but can't make state citizens out of people within its own territories.

4 posted on 09/19/2003 10:15:42 AM PDT by inquest (World socialism: the ultimate multinational corporation)
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To: Sir Gawain; stainlessbanner; 4ConservativeJustices; GOPcapitalist; stand watie; aomagrat; ...
Bump from a citizen of the state of North Carolina
5 posted on 09/19/2003 10:21:24 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: gubamyster
ping
7 posted on 09/19/2003 10:31:41 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Sir Gawain
. . . .The object of the [Fourteenth] amendment was undoubtedly to enforce the absolute equality of the two races before the law.... Justice Henry Brown - Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896)

National Constitution Center: Interactive Constitution Although the Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery, it did not resolve the legal status of former slaves under federal and state law. After the Civil War, many southern states passed "Black Codes" designed to severely restrict the lives of newly freed slaves and keep them in virtual slavery. Through the Fourteenth Amendment, former slaves were granted citizenship and promised "equal protection of the laws." This protection from unreasonable discrimination eventually extended to other groups as well. The Fourteenth Amendment became the basis for claims of legal equality.

Because the Fourteenth Amendment specifically addressed the states, it drastically expanded the reach of the U.S. Constitution. The Supreme Court used the amendment to apply most provisions in the Bill of Rights to state governments. As a result, the Fourteenth Amendment is cited more often in modern litigation than any other. In fact, many constitutional scholars believe that, through its wide scope and promise of equality, the Fourteenth Amendment created a new Constitution.

Failed Ratification of Fourteenth Amendment Congressional Record -- House, June 13, 1967, page 15641, H7161

THE 14TH AMENDMENT - EQUAL PROTECTION LAW OR TOOL OF USURPATION

(Mr. Rarick (at the request of Mr. Pryor) was granted permission to extend his remarks at this point in the Record and to include extraneous matter.)

Mr. RARICK. Mr. Speaker, arrogantly ignoring clear-cut expressions in the Constitution of the United States, the declared intent of its drafters notwithstanding, our unelected Federal judges read out prohibitions of the Constitution of the United States by adopting the fuzzy haze of the 14th Amendment to legislate their personal ideas, prejudices, theories, guilt complexes, aims, and whims. Through the cooperation of intellectual educators, we have subjected ourselves to accept destructive use and meaning of words and phrases. We blindly accept new meanings and changed values to alter our traditional thoughts.

We have tolerantly permitted the habitual misuse of words to serve as a vehicle to abandon our foundations and goals. Thus, the present use and expansion of the 14th Amendment is a sham -- {H7162} serving as a crutch and hoodwink to precipitate a quasi-legal approach for overthrow of the tender balances and protections of limitation found in the Constitution.

Government by Judiciary: The Transformation of the Fourteenth Amendment Second Edition. By Raoul Berger

Berger famously argued that the great 1954 school desegregation case of Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided because the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not intend its equal protection clause to require racial integration of the public schools. According to Berger, the sole purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868, was to reinforce the federal Civil Rights Act of 1866 and protect it against repeal by a future Congress.

8 posted on 09/19/2003 10:37:38 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
ping
9 posted on 09/19/2003 10:42:27 AM PDT by gubamyster
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To: Sir Gawain
The War Between the States was only peripherally about slavery, no matter what anyone says. The war was fought to decide if we live in a nation with a centralized National government under which the States exist as mere subdivisions of the whole or if we live in a nation with a limited Federal government under which the States are sovereign and only delegate some power to the Federal government and reserve all other powers for themselves and their citizens. With the outcome of the war, the 14th Amendment, and precedent which has been set ever since, it is obvious that the side of the centralized National government is the victor and that annoying things like the 10th Amendment and such should just be ignored as they are irrelevant.

And it is all so very unfortunate

14 posted on 09/19/2003 11:16:24 AM PDT by Spiff (Have you committed one random act of thoughtcrime today?)
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To: Sir Gawain

Contrary to the misrepresentations emanating from friends of big government, the Constitution did not create a national system of government or consolidate the States or their people into a single nation.

 

According to Madison in making his argument for the ratification of the Constitution to the American people it did.

James Madison, Federalist #39:

 

The Constitution was simply a continuation of the federal system of government established by the Articles of Confederation.

Hardly!!

James Madison, Federalist #45:

James Madison, Elliots Debates Vol 3 p128:

Hamilton, Federalist #34:

 


 

Under this system, the federal government would act as the agent of the States and its powers would relate to mutual relations between the States and external or foreign affairs.

False Premises makes for False Conclusions.

19 posted on 09/19/2003 11:40:23 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Sir Gawain
Bump for later.
25 posted on 09/19/2003 11:58:01 AM PDT by StriperSniper (The slippery slope is getting steeper.)
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To: Sir Gawain
Improper question, as would be expected considering the source, since there never were any citizens of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Citizenship was always determined by the federal government but they were citizens of the United States. States could never grant citizenship it was only available through the federal government.

So the answer to the improper question is "NO."
26 posted on 09/19/2003 12:07:41 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: Sir Gawain
The first interpretation of the 14th Amendment on record is Chief Justice Miller's opinion on the Slaughterhouse Cases.
The following text is from the majority opinion (about 3/4 of the way down the page):

http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[group+f_slavery!3A]/doc/{@6561}/hit_headings/words=4?

From that opinion:

Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872) (USSC+)
Opinions
MILLER, J., Opinion of the Court

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

The first observation we have to make on this clause is that it puts at rest both the questions which we stated to have been the subject of differences of opinion. It declares that persons may be citizens of the United States without regard to their citizenship of a particular State, and it overturns the Dred Scott decision by making all persons born within the United States and subject to its jurisdiction citizens of the United States. That its main purpose was to establish the citizenship of the negro can admit of no doubt. The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.

Note that Justice Miller used the words, "was intended to" as if he were relating a fact of history and not merely stating an opinion. Given that he was a contemporary of those who authored the amendment, it is clear that the original intent of the language was to prevent what is happening now: women jumping the border and bearing an American citizen.
35 posted on 09/19/2003 1:22:56 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Sir Gawain
Sir Gawain,
I have a question? Are legal aliens protected under Amendment XIV?
39 posted on 09/19/2003 1:36:25 PM PDT by Milligan
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To: Sir Gawain
Since the federal government is, by definition and intent, the common government of the several States, not the general government of the American people, the Fourteenth Amendment could not have made them citizens of the States’ government.

Few residents of the 50 states are aware of, let alone understand this fundamental Constitutional principle. Most Americans today consider themselves RESIDENTS of a state, but CITIZENS of the United States — and neither the states nor the feds do anything to disabuse the people of this false notion. This, of course, is due to a long-standing failure to responsibly and accurately teach the Constitution and Constitutional history in our schools. I don't know the remedy for it at this stage in our history.

52 posted on 09/19/2003 2:59:34 PM PDT by Wolfstar (NO SECURITY = NO ECONOMY)
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To: Sir Gawain
bump
71 posted on 09/19/2003 6:18:32 PM PDT by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: jmc813
self bump for later
78 posted on 09/21/2003 11:09:50 AM PDT by jmc813 (Check out the FR Big Brother 4 thread! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/943368/posts)
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To: Sir Gawain
Yup, it tried to ruin us, however, more and more people are learning the slavery issue was a convenient ruse and a way of garnering support for keeping the union together, or more exactly, taking away state sovereignty. Hell, they did it to the Cherokees, Iroquois, and the Chippewas, why not a bunch of white Southern folk. Even today, the North considers the Southerners a bunch of backwoods gun nutz without any culture and a predisposition to violence and incest.
82 posted on 09/22/2003 10:07:46 PM PDT by Porterville (I spell stuff wrong sometimes, get over yourself, you're not that great.)
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To: Sir Gawain
The 14th Amendment was ratified on July 28, 1868. However, one day before, Congress passed the following law (see below). They knew what they were doing -- the Doctrine of Loopholes; every law, statute, regulation has one. The following is the loophole for 14th Amendment citizens, passed on July 27, 1868:

The law: FORTIETH CONGRESS, Sess, II, Ch. 248,249,1868, CHAP.CCXLIX. - An Act concerning the Rights of American Citizens in foreign States.

Whereas the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and whereas in the recognition of this principle this government has freely Received emigrants from all nations, and invested them with the right of citizenship; and whereas it is claimed that such American citizens, with their descendants are subject of foreign states, owing allegiance to the governments thereof, and whereas it is necessary to the maintenance of public peace that this claim of foreign allegiance should be promptly and finally disavowed: Therefore,

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any offices of this government which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government.

Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That all naturalized citizens of the United States, while in foreign states, shall be entitled to, and shall receive from this government, the same protection of persons and property that is accorded to native born citizens in like situations and circumstances.

Sec.3. And be it further enacted, That whenever it shall be made known to the President that any citizen of the United States has been unjustly deprived of his liberty by or under the authority of any foreign government, it shall be the duty of the President forthwith to demand of that government the reasons for such imprisonment, and if it appears to be wrongful and in violation of the rights of American citizenship, the President shall demand the release of such citizen, and if the release so demanded is unreasonably delayed or refused, it shall be the duty of the President to use such means, not amounting to act of war, as he may think necessary and proper to obtain or effectuate such release, and all the acts and proceedings relative thereto shall be as soon as practicable be communicated by the President to Congress. Approved July 27th, 1968.

Please note that a foreign state is any union state outside of the Federal Zone: i.e. Virginia, Maryland, California and etc. The state of Puerto Rico or Guam are not foreign because they belongs to the government. Also, each of the union states is foreign to each other.


83 posted on 09/23/2003 2:25:37 AM PDT by handk
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To: Sir Gawain
ping
86 posted on 09/23/2003 8:46:40 AM PDT by handk
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To: Sir Gawain
Nope the 17th ammendment assured that the Federal Government would no longer have to be worried about being kept in check by the states.... sorry guys, you want to fix the Republic.... the only way to do it is repealing the 17th ammendment.
88 posted on 09/23/2003 8:53:39 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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