France and Germany seek full UN control over Iraq

The Guardian ^ | 9/10/03 | Patrick Wintour

[truthandlife]

France and Germany will back the new UN resolution on Iraq sought by President George Bush only if the proposal gives the UN full political rule over the country. The countries have also demanded a clear programme for returning power to Iraqis.

The high price sought by the French suggests that Mr Bush is going to struggle to win UN agreement ahead of his planned speech to the security council on September 24. Foreign ministers of the five permanent members are due to meet the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, in Geneva this weekend to try to find common ground.

Paris wants the UN to run Iraq temporarily on the model of Afghanistan, but insists its proposals do not represent an attempt to settle scores over the unilateral action by the US and Britain in Iraq.

France and Germany will accept the authority of the 25-strong governing council of Iraq, even though its membership was largely handpicked by the Anglo-US provisional authority. France believes the handover needs to be quick since many Iraqis fail to distinguish between US and UN control of the country.

Mr Bush has already tabled a draft resolution to leave US in full control of the coalition military, and give the UN only limited authority.

French sources insist they will approach the talks constructively, and not attempt to humiliate the US over its inability to restore order after the invasion.

The French remain surprised at the lack of planning for postwar reconstruction, and of any apparent serious thought about the prospect of conflict between the Shia and Sunni groups. France doubts a solution lies in extra troops, but says the governing council needs to be given a clear impression of a timetable leading to democratic elections and a constitutional assembly.

Both Britain and the US have suggested elections are held within a year, but they have failed to put this timetable into the draft. France is not insisting on a specific timetable, since such dates might not be met, which could lead to a more general loss of momentum.

It remains sceptical of the idea that Britain is wielding significant influence over the new conservative mood in Washington. It has been suggested that No 10 saw the draft US resolution only a couple of days before it was circulated to security council members.

France is also seeking greater UN control of Iraqi oil revenues.

· Mr Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, appeared to admit yesterday that the US government had failed to appreciate the scale of the reconstruction job in Iraq. She blamed a lack of information under the rule of Saddam Hussein, which meant any underestimate of the size of the task "was not at all surprising".

However, according to the Washington Post, violent resistance to US forces in Iraq was predicted by intelligence agencies, whose warnings may have been ignored by the White House. An unnamed senior administration official told the paper: "Intelligence reports told them at some length about possibilities for unpleasantness."

[UCANSEE2]

PPS. We sold equipment for weapons to Iraq too. We trained the terrorists that attacked us. The Russians sold Iraq weapons, or gave them to them.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in arguing that France and Germany didn't sell/trade weaponry to Iraq, as France is one of the world's largest exporters of military airpower equipment.

I have to assume from your stance and words that you are in/from Germany, and that any 'attack' on Germany is an attack on you. It is not. What the leaders of Germany and France do is not the blame of the people of that country. At least not at this second. When they have a choice to elect a new leader, if they pick the same one, then I can see pointing a finger. Same goes for the US.

[UCANSEE2]

I don't know if you see what a great source of information you can be to FREEPERS in the US.

Since the US population has a media that is just as skewed and controlled as (or more than) Russian media, for instance, what we often 'know' is not often 'true'.

This is what the internet can be all about. When individuals can pass the 'truth' on to each other so they are not controlled (Sheeple) by power-hungry politicians, money-hungry elitists, and rumor-supporting/damage-controlling media, we can have a true world citizen, a truly free world.

[Michael81Dus]

The fact that Saddam has written a letter to my government cannot be found negative for them, if they had accepted, then it surely would have been a problem.

Those German businessmen who made deals with Saddam illegally are now charged (and face (suspended) imprisonment).

I realize that Germany and France oppose the US policy - and that just two years after Schröder promised "unconditional solidarity" with the US. I cannot understand why France behaves the way it does. I do not know much about the French foreign policy of today, but I can imagine that there´re economic interests. I can speak for Germany, because I know why Schröder and Fischer oppose the current US policy. You know that Europeans (especially leftists) love to talk and discuss before doing anything. So do Schröder/Fischer. They had loved to have the UN weapons inspectors for a longer time, to debate with the Iraqi leadership- they oppose military action in general and only legitimate it as an exception.

The government is running our military, economy and society down. Thanks to the voters who finally woke up (unfortunately AFTER the last election), we - the centre-right parties - took over control about the 2nd chamber so that the major domestic laws cannot be changed without our permission. However, foreign policy is made by the government.

Why I´m annoyed is that I always hear "F*** Germany!" and "Germany is our enemy". We´re not.

[UCANSEE2]

Michael. Thank you for replying and acknowledging that there was some 'truth' to the contract weapons for oil deal. None of this really matters anyway.

What does matter is what you said last, and I hope is something we all can learn from.

Why I´m annoyed is that I always hear "F*** Germany!" and "Germany is our enemy". We´re not.

The same goes for the people of Italy, the people of Afghanistan, the people of Rhodesia, the people of the United States.

How many times do you think that US Citizens have heard the words "F*** the U.S., and "the U.S. is our enemy" ????? Do you think we like it?

Why, when France and Germany's leaders refused to help in Iraq, did the German people not speak up?

[UCANSEE2]

P.S. In rereading your reply, I see some explanation of why. Again, the answer is usually the same for all of 'us'.

We may elect our representatives, but they don't always do what we believe is right. And when that is so, we can't always stop them in their tracks. It takes time.

[Constitutional Patriot]

My apologies. I meant no offense. I am extremely grateful for the support my country has received from the decent people of Germany and France (like you).

If there were any such celebrations, I'm sure that they would be isolated to a finge element (as they are here as well).

I just got a little "steamed" when I read the story.

[Michael81Dus]

No problem. I´m just here to remind you that here are others who do not agree with Schröder/Chiraq. :-)

[Prodigal Son]

it seems the average french and german citizen has more in common with saddam than the average iraqi...

You don't know jacksh!t about the average German. You are hateful, ignorant individual.

[Prodigal Son]

it seems the average french and german citizen has more in common with saddam than the average iraqi...

You don't know jacksh!t about the average German. You are a hateful, ignorant individual.

[rrrod]

lol too funny ...condering the source...am i having a great day or what..love to see some defending the back stabbers....

[Prodigal Son]

It will be interesting to see if any of these parties get mentioned by the media.

You believe his claim? Come on... rrrod can't pass a German thread without saying 'all Germans rot!' and so forth. He calls Germans a worse threat than jihadists. This is his fetish. His hatred of Germans is pathological. Half my family is German and live in Germany. My wife was there just last weekend. I've sat down and discussed 9/11 many times with Germans. It's not like this jackass says- he's making that sh!t up.

[Prodigal Son]

Who are backstabbers?

[Prodigal Son]

And don't worry. I know you won't reply as is your habit.

You're like the French- turn tail and run when confronted...

[Constitutional Patriot]

Michael181Dus told me the same thing. Thanks for the heads-up.

CP

[anotherGerman]

This is utter BS. Germany´s part in arming Iraq was not even a single percent point. There used to be a chart posted here some time ago in March or February showing this (it was posted by an American). So please show some proof for you hilarious "oilfield theory". Oh, and while we are at it, would you be so kind as to name the numerous German weapons used by the Iraqis. The T-72s or T-55s for instance?

[anotherGerman]

Your mouth is very big. Now show some proof that Germany did extensive deals with Iraq and actively supported the Iraqi regime!

Waiting...

[anotherGerman]

I don´t know where these strange ideas come from, there were certainly no German 9/11 partys here?!

[anotherGerman]

I have to appologize a bit for my somewhat unfriendly first posting. To me it looked like another rant against my country until I read further postings from you.

One thing many Americans have a hard time understanding is that after WW II the German people have become VERY VERY anti war. We are very pacifist, way too pacifist if you ask me. So war is a bad thing here, and if there is no really good reason to go to war, we rather don´t do it.

To illustrate: If the 9/11 attacks had been by say Iran bombing the US, people in Germany would have supported the US. But it did not and still doesn´t make much sense to many people here to invade Iraq "out of the blue".

[UCANSEE2]

Thanks. I am just curious as to why it seems that, during this entire conflict, at every step, the governments of France and Germany refused to support the action of the COALITION forces?

[UCANSEE2]

P.S. I don't believe it was 'out of the blue'. Months and months of warnings after years of non-compliance. Why did France and Germany accept SADDAM not following the rulings of the UNITED NATIONS?