France and Germany seek full UN control over Iraq

The Guardian ^ | 9/10/03 | Patrick Wintour

[UCANSEE2]

PPS. We sold equipment for weapons to Iraq too. We trained the terrorists that attacked us. The Russians sold Iraq weapons, or gave them to them.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in arguing that France and Germany didn't sell/trade weaponry to Iraq, as France is one of the world's largest exporters of military airpower equipment.

I have to assume from your stance and words that you are in/from Germany, and that any 'attack' on Germany is an attack on you. It is not. What the leaders of Germany and France do is not the blame of the people of that country. At least not at this second. When they have a choice to elect a new leader, if they pick the same one, then I can see pointing a finger. Same goes for the US.

[UCANSEE2]

I don't know if you see what a great source of information you can be to FREEPERS in the US.

Since the US population has a media that is just as skewed and controlled as (or more than) Russian media, for instance, what we often 'know' is not often 'true'.

This is what the internet can be all about. When individuals can pass the 'truth' on to each other so they are not controlled (Sheeple) by power-hungry politicians, money-hungry elitists, and rumor-supporting/damage-controlling media, we can have a true world citizen, a truly free world.

[Michael81Dus]

The fact that Saddam has written a letter to my government cannot be found negative for them, if they had accepted, then it surely would have been a problem.

Those German businessmen who made deals with Saddam illegally are now charged (and face (suspended) imprisonment).

I realize that Germany and France oppose the US policy - and that just two years after Schröder promised "unconditional solidarity" with the US. I cannot understand why France behaves the way it does. I do not know much about the French foreign policy of today, but I can imagine that there´re economic interests. I can speak for Germany, because I know why Schröder and Fischer oppose the current US policy. You know that Europeans (especially leftists) love to talk and discuss before doing anything. So do Schröder/Fischer. They had loved to have the UN weapons inspectors for a longer time, to debate with the Iraqi leadership- they oppose military action in general and only legitimate it as an exception.

The government is running our military, economy and society down. Thanks to the voters who finally woke up (unfortunately AFTER the last election), we - the centre-right parties - took over control about the 2nd chamber so that the major domestic laws cannot be changed without our permission. However, foreign policy is made by the government.

Why I´m annoyed is that I always hear "F*** Germany!" and "Germany is our enemy". We´re not.

[UCANSEE2]

Michael. Thank you for replying and acknowledging that there was some 'truth' to the contract weapons for oil deal. None of this really matters anyway.

What does matter is what you said last, and I hope is something we all can learn from.

Why I´m annoyed is that I always hear "F*** Germany!" and "Germany is our enemy". We´re not.

The same goes for the people of Italy, the people of Afghanistan, the people of Rhodesia, the people of the United States.

How many times do you think that US Citizens have heard the words "F*** the U.S., and "the U.S. is our enemy" ????? Do you think we like it?

Why, when France and Germany's leaders refused to help in Iraq, did the German people not speak up?

[UCANSEE2]

P.S. In rereading your reply, I see some explanation of why. Again, the answer is usually the same for all of 'us'.

We may elect our representatives, but they don't always do what we believe is right. And when that is so, we can't always stop them in their tracks. It takes time.

[Constitutional Patriot]

My apologies. I meant no offense. I am extremely grateful for the support my country has received from the decent people of Germany and France (like you).

If there were any such celebrations, I'm sure that they would be isolated to a finge element (as they are here as well).

I just got a little "steamed" when I read the story.

[Michael81Dus]

No problem. I´m just here to remind you that here are others who do not agree with Schröder/Chiraq. :-)

[Prodigal Son]

it seems the average french and german citizen has more in common with saddam than the average iraqi...

You don't know jacksh!t about the average German. You are hateful, ignorant individual.

[Prodigal Son]

it seems the average french and german citizen has more in common with saddam than the average iraqi...

You don't know jacksh!t about the average German. You are a hateful, ignorant individual.

[rrrod]

lol too funny ...condering the source...am i having a great day or what..love to see some defending the back stabbers....

[Prodigal Son]

It will be interesting to see if any of these parties get mentioned by the media.

You believe his claim? Come on... rrrod can't pass a German thread without saying 'all Germans rot!' and so forth. He calls Germans a worse threat than jihadists. This is his fetish. His hatred of Germans is pathological. Half my family is German and live in Germany. My wife was there just last weekend. I've sat down and discussed 9/11 many times with Germans. It's not like this jackass says- he's making that sh!t up.

[Prodigal Son]

Who are backstabbers?

[Prodigal Son]

And don't worry. I know you won't reply as is your habit.

You're like the French- turn tail and run when confronted...

[Constitutional Patriot]

Michael181Dus told me the same thing. Thanks for the heads-up.

CP

[anotherGerman]

This is utter BS. Germany´s part in arming Iraq was not even a single percent point. There used to be a chart posted here some time ago in March or February showing this (it was posted by an American). So please show some proof for you hilarious "oilfield theory". Oh, and while we are at it, would you be so kind as to name the numerous German weapons used by the Iraqis. The T-72s or T-55s for instance?

[anotherGerman]

Your mouth is very big. Now show some proof that Germany did extensive deals with Iraq and actively supported the Iraqi regime!

Waiting...

[anotherGerman]

I don´t know where these strange ideas come from, there were certainly no German 9/11 partys here?!

[anotherGerman]

I have to appologize a bit for my somewhat unfriendly first posting. To me it looked like another rant against my country until I read further postings from you.

One thing many Americans have a hard time understanding is that after WW II the German people have become VERY VERY anti war. We are very pacifist, way too pacifist if you ask me. So war is a bad thing here, and if there is no really good reason to go to war, we rather don´t do it.

To illustrate: If the 9/11 attacks had been by say Iran bombing the US, people in Germany would have supported the US. But it did not and still doesn´t make much sense to many people here to invade Iraq "out of the blue".

[UCANSEE2]

Thanks. I am just curious as to why it seems that, during this entire conflict, at every step, the governments of France and Germany refused to support the action of the COALITION forces?

[UCANSEE2]

P.S. I don't believe it was 'out of the blue'. Months and months of warnings after years of non-compliance. Why did France and Germany accept SADDAM not following the rulings of the UNITED NATIONS?