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Israel Looks to New of Army Vehicles
The Associated Press via the Kansas City Star ^ | Wed, Aug. 13, 2003 | GAVIN RABINOWITZ/AP

Posted on 09/05/2003 2:04:55 PM PDT by archy

Israel Looks to New of Army Vehicles
GAVIN RABINOWITZ
Associated Press

JERUSALEM - To boost the maneuverability of its army, particularly in the urbanized West Bank and Gaza Strip, the Israeli military plans to equip its troops with armored vehicles that use wheels instead of tracks, Israeli officials said.

The military will buy 500 American-made Stryker LAV-3 armored personnel carriers for its soldiers, the Haaretz daily newspaper said.

The $750 million purchase of the Strykers will be funded by America's annual defense aid to Israel, Haaretz said. The Strykers, expected to be in use within seven years, would replace the old M-113 APCs the army has been using since the early 1970s.

An Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the army also was set to receive and equip its special forces with an armored version of the U.S.-made Humvee fighting vehicle in the coming weeks.

The army also is considering buying a German-made APC, called the Dingo, for use in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, another Israeli source said. Such a move would be controversial in Germany, which has refused similar requests in the past.

The German defense ministry could not comment but noted that such a sale would require government approval. The U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv declined comment. The Israeli military spokesman's office said final decisions had not yet been made.

The Humvee, the Stryker and the Dingo all have wheels while the older APCs run on tracks. In the past, the army needed tracked vehicles to reach the battleground over harsh terrain.

But the tracked vehicles cannot use today's network of roads for rapid deployment, needing the help of tank carriers.

The Stryker, with a maximum speed of 65 mph, also fits the military's combat doctrine that calls for an integration of infantry and armored forces. The old M-113 proved itself slow in keeping up with Israel's modern tanks.

The change in focus is a result of both the U.S. army's conclusions from the two Gulf wars and Israel's own experiences during the 33 months of bitter fighting with the Palestinians that often saw cumbersome APCs operating in the narrow alleyways of the West Bank and Gaza.

According to the Israeli source, the army also is considering attempting to purchase the German-made Dingo APC for its mechanized infantry units that operate exclusively in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Dingo is said to offer its crew unparalleled protection from mines and roadside bombs for its class of armored vehicle.

A similar Israeli request in September caused an outcry in Germany, which has strict guidelines for exporting armaments to conflict areas.

The company that makes the Dingos, Krauss-Maffel Wegmann, said they have no knowledge of Israeli interest in the vehicles.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antitank; btr80; idf; imi; israel; rpg7; sbct; stryker; wheeledarmor; wheelies
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An older article from last month, but I didn't find anything else regarding the planned Israeli purchase, to which I was referred to by an Israeli pal, in the FR archives of Stryker/SCBT stories.

I'll see what can be found in the German English-language press as well.

-archy-/-

1 posted on 09/05/2003 2:04:55 PM PDT by archy
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To: af_vet_rr; ALOHA RONNIE; American in Israel; American Soldier; AngrySpud; archy; armymarinemom; ...
Stryker/SCBT/LAV ping!
2 posted on 09/05/2003 2:06:39 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy

3 posted on 09/05/2003 2:11:39 PM PDT by lormand (Dead people vote DemocRAT)
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To: archy

4 posted on 09/05/2003 2:12:01 PM PDT by KantianBurke (The Federal govt should be protecting us from terrorists, not handing out goodies)
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To: msdrby
Honey, can I get one too? Pretty please...
5 posted on 09/05/2003 2:21:16 PM PDT by Prof Engineer (HHD - Blast it Jim. I'm an Engineer, not a walking dictionary.)
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To: archy
German Dingo (apparantly):


6 posted on 09/05/2003 2:32:19 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: archy
"The military will buy 500 American-made Stryker LAV-3 armored personnel carriers...The $750 million purchase of the Strykers will be funded by America's annual defense aid to Israel."

So, shouldn't this read, "The American taxpayer will give 500 Strykers....."? Now I know where the child tax credit I didn't get this year went to. (the boy turned seventeen so the government thinks it no longer costs me anything to support him)
7 posted on 09/05/2003 3:06:49 PM PDT by beelzepug (incessantly yapping for change)
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To: archy
Israel Looks to New of Army Vehicles

Don't you have to pass the 6th grade in order to become a headline writer anymore?

8 posted on 09/05/2003 3:08:50 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: beelzepug
Just be happy that Israel is the one country in the Middle East your son will not have to risk his blood to fight Jihadists.

Cheap at twice the price, seeing how it costs us more that that A DAY to support the Iraq conflict.
9 posted on 09/05/2003 3:09:57 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: archy
That's two additional countries that want Stryker. Maybe they can improve it some or at least avoid being politically pressured into buying w/o modification.
10 posted on 09/05/2003 3:27:15 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (More Americans 18-49 Watch The Cartoon Network than CNN!!!)
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To: beelzepug
The aid is in the form of an aid. The US gets money back always and this purchase creates jobs in America and increases business.
11 posted on 09/05/2003 3:51:32 PM PDT by yonif ("If I Forget Thee, O Jerusalem, Let My Right Hand Wither" - Psalms 137:5)
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To: archy
"Israel Looks to New of Army Vehicles"

All Your New Are Belong to Us!

All Your Army Vehicle too.

Make your time.

12 posted on 09/05/2003 5:45:26 PM PDT by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational.)
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To: archy
The Stryker, with a maximum speed of 65 mph, also fits the military's combat doctrine that calls for an integration of infantry and armored forces. The old M-113 proved itself slow in keeping up with Israel's modern tanks.

A modernization program for the M113 fleet would be in order. The M113A3 with improved suspension and upgrades to power train can keep pace with the Abrams and nothing in Israel can compare to the M1A2. If I was in Israel I would want to see the results of any live fire testing conducted at APG. In fact, I might want to buy a couple of Strykers and see how they withstand RPG's, and don't let them put the add on armor on the vehicles. Heck, it is almost 3 feet wider with that junk on it. Can you imagine trying to maneuver through a village with a vehicle that is 14 to 15 feet wide? Needs to have ground guides just to get around. Try that with snipers in the meighborhood.

13 posted on 09/05/2003 7:27:50 PM PDT by 30-06 Springfield
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To: 30-06 Springfield
Israel should wait until they see how our Strykers do in Iraq beginning in October. Our's are deploying without the Mobile Gun System (MGS) promised by General Dynamics the first time in 1980. That one still has not arrived so I don't understand why anyone would be surprised that they have not performed this time. Armaments seem to be a problem at General Dynamics.

The Isralies are paying $1.5 million of our money for each vehicle and we're paying $2.8 million for each vehicle with our money. I don't get that unless they got a discount for buying sight unseen. That's sort of like buying a pig-in-a-poke.
14 posted on 09/06/2003 2:25:36 AM PDT by lshoultz
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To: .cnI redruM
Israel may be the proper country to use them. Since they don't have to fly them anywhere the heavy weight of the Stryker would not be a problem. Also, without the requirement to deploy by C-130s, the Israelis can bolt on the applique armor that their Raphael works makes so nicely.

In addition, since Israel maintans a fire support network of artillery bases to cover all of its territory the Stryker's lack of a main gun will not be a problem.

Also, since the Israelis are buying them for $1.3 million per car less than we are, they can take the chance on being able to fix them properly once they get them.

The only remaining problem I see for them are those big, rubber wheels. RPGs are a problem throughout the Middle East. Since the Stryker uses its front four wheels for steering they cannot be covered by RPG skirts. The Russian experience in Chechnya was that the big problem they faced in urban warfare was the Muslims using Molotov Cocktails and setting the rubber wheels on fire. Russia has now withdrawn all of its wheeled APCs and replaced them with their newer tracked vehicles.

That's a hoot - we'll buying wheeled armor because the Russians had it in Kosovo and they are geting rid of it because they lost so much of it in Afghanistan and Chechnya.
15 posted on 09/06/2003 2:37:30 AM PDT by lshoultz
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To: 30-06 Springfield; archy
It strikes me (no pun intended) that an RPG HE would definitely take out the wheels on the Stryker. It also would be hard to miss, since there are so many of them. But what I am wondering is how the Stryker armor would stand up to a hit from the HESH RPG, or even how it might fare against HMG fire.

In an urban scenario, wouldn't there be fire from behind and above, as well? It looks to me that a Dingo type vehicle might be just as effective as the Stryker and a lot handier (and cheaper!) I frankly would hate to ride either one into an hostile alley.

I'm getting the picture that in urban warfare, the best transportation is sneakers, the best weapons: RPGs, scoped sniper rifles (day and night), and AK74s. All of which favor the homies, and not the visiting team. Perhaps we ought to do what we do best, and make sure potential enemies do not have any urban areas left. That's what these vehicles are apparently best suited for: sitting on a hillside 2 miles away, watching the AF reorganize hostile urban areas and the Army smooth out the rubble with artillery.

16 posted on 09/06/2003 4:33:34 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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To: Lion Den Dan
Are you on the ping list? Hope you and the missus are well.
17 posted on 09/06/2003 5:08:28 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: Kenny Bunk
It strikes me (no pun intended) that an RPG HE would definitely take out the wheels on the Stryker. It also would be hard to miss, since there are so many of them. But what I am wondering is how the Stryker armor would stand up to a hit from the HESH RPG, or even how it might fare against HMG fire.

Because the Stryker has a Central Tire Inflation System to allow its height to be lowered for C130 transport, the Stryker tires have to have very thin sidewalls; not only can they be chewed off by small arms fire and deflated with a hit from anything .50 caliber and above [including 12-gauge shotgun slugs, interestingly] they're particularly susceptable to hits from 40mm grenades from weapons such as the underbarrel M203 grenade launcher with High Explosive Dual-Purpose ammunition [a shaped charge warhead that can defeat up to four inches of armor] the Mk 19 automatic grenade launcher, or the Soviet fielded 40mm GP-30 underbarrel launcher for the AK system or the Soviet-designed Plamya beltfed autocannon. And once the tires begin burning, the crew inside can either stay inside and burn with it- the Stryker has a fuel tank mounted externally behind the third and last drive wheels, and it too can be ruptured by small arms or grenade launcher fire- or can leave the *protection* of their vehicle for the waiting shooters outside. Not pretty.

Btw, the PG-7 warhead of the RPG-7D and RPG-7V is a HEAT warhead, not HESH, though the various later thermobaric warhead rounds for the RPG developed by the Russians and Bulgarians can be expected to have an effect similar to that of a HESH round. And the Stryker's armor, necessarily brittle to obtrain hardness, has been fractured when a demolition charge carried externally on an engineer vehicle configured Stryker detonated during live fire testing. Accordingly, it appears likely that the Stryker will be particularly vulnerable to such projectiles and will need anti-spall linings...more weight to go with the additional 2 tons from the add-on armor; it's now over 20 tons. And that means even less room inside, too...

It's not much better for those aboard a tracked vehicle when a track is knocked off or apart than it is for those on wheels, but some tracks can at least roll away on their road wheels out of the kill zone, particularly if on a paved road or city street.

In an urban scenario, wouldn't there be fire from behind and above, as well? It looks to me that a Dingo type vehicle might be just as effective as the Stryker and a lot handier (and cheaper!) I frankly would hate to ride either one into an hostile alley.

Probably the real most recent experts on the use of armored vehicles in urban areas was the Brits during the time of their occupation of Northern Ireland. They required an enormous variety of differing types, both wheeled and tracked, and they also faced the RPG-7 and similar launchers, though not in as great a number as our forces may encounter. Everything from armoured Land Rovers to six-wheeled armoured cars mounting a 76mm main gun were used, as well as light 4-wheel armoured cars and armored police *paddy wagons.* Rifle fire and Molotov cocktails were the primary concerns, though not at all the only ones.

In addition to the Dingo, check out the six-wheeled Finnish Sisu, similar, but superior in many ways.

The point, though, is that when you do find yourself rolling into a hornets nest in a blind alley [or a crossroads where you may be in an X-shaped ambush taking fire from all sides] you roll right out again if you can. And you think a lot about command-detonated mines while you're doing so, as well as backup RPGs.

I'm getting the picture that in urban warfare, the best transportation is sneakers, the best weapons: RPGs, scoped sniper rifles (day and night), and AK74s. All of which favor the homies, and not the visiting team. Perhaps we ought to do what we do best, and make sure potential enemies do not have any urban areas left. That's what these vehicles are apparently best suited for: sitting on a hillside 2 miles away, watching the AF reorganize hostile urban areas and the Army smooth out the rubble with artillery. IMHO, the best weapons aboard a Stryker are its radios and and digital C3 gear and a laser target designator. But the point is, that if you're facing a determined enemy mounted on those sneakers, with RPG-7s [or worse; there ARE more effective handheld AT weapons] SVD snipers' rifles and AKs, you need troops on the ground on foot to deal with them, NOT riding around in vehicles....though fast response teams will be required, as they were in Mogadishu when the Rangers were slaughtered.

But those response teams had better be expecting to be suckered into an ambush. Because a strike on an isolated patrol is how such forces are pulled out of their defensive perimeters to a nice location where forces thought to be sufficient to deal with them will be waiting.

The accompanying vehicles support the grunts on the ground; they're not just a taxi for them. When we forget that, we'll pay.

18 posted on 09/06/2003 9:42:10 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: boris
"Israel Looks to New of Army Vehicles"

Someone's translation into the English language was a little less than seamless. I wonder if the original was Hebrew, or Russian, very possibly one heavily accented with the other....

19 posted on 09/06/2003 9:46:22 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: beelzepug
So, shouldn't this read, "The American taxpayer will give 500 Strykers....."? Now I know where the child tax credit I didn't get this year went to. (the boy turned seventeen so the government thinks it no longer costs me anything to support him)

Be grateful you're not supporting his 17-year-old wife, as well.

And that he's not yet in the military, and about to be deployed into Iraq in a Stryker-equipped unit.

-archy-/-

20 posted on 09/06/2003 9:48:22 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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