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1 posted on 09/01/2003 7:03:21 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: boromeo; .45MAN; AAABEST; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; Antoninus; ...
It can be argued that the dumbing-down of the pro-life movement (i.e. the acceptance of contraception and ‘exceptions’) has prevented any real success in advancing pro-life legislation, and set the movement back. By diluting traditional doctrines of sexual morality within the Pro-life movement, it has become less of a moral movement, and more of a political fishnet designed for harvesting voters for right of center Republican candidates who are expected to moderate their Pro-life views with sufficient ‘exceptions’ to be deemed ‘electible.’

Ping.(As usual, if you would like to be added to or removed from my "conservative Catholics" ping list, just send me a FReepmail. Please realize that some of my "ping" posts are long.)

2 posted on 09/01/2003 7:07:01 PM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Polycarp
Welcom to Post-Moral America.
3 posted on 09/01/2003 7:07:45 PM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: Polycarp
"abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception"


Now there's a big tent to get under.
This just shows how extreme some people are.
5 posted on 09/01/2003 7:21:35 PM PDT by John Beresford Tipton
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To: Polycarp
Kopp ignores a critical distinction. From the point of view of Catholic doctrine, there is a continuity between the teachings on contraception and on abortion. However, the case against contraception DEPENDS on Catholic presuppositions in a way that the case against abortion does not. The case against abortion may be made effectively to a secular but intellectually honest society (which, on the whole, the U.S.A. still is). On the other hand, you will not get an intelligent person to UNDERSTAND, let alone accept, the teaching against artificial contraception until you have first made the case for Christian sexual morality in general (and THAT case can currently be made much more effectively in a private than in a political context).

C.S. Lewis perceived the switch more than four decades ago, when he wrote that contraceptives had removed the biggest practical argument against fornication (because of the great reduction in risk of pregnancy), and that therefore you must FIRST make the case for Christianity to modern adults before you can make the case for Christian sexual morals. (Of course, other religions also condemn fornication, so the same remarks apply, though I am only concerned with Christianity here.)

Catholics may do well to learn the entire doctrine on sexual morals, but in the context of fighting abortion in a secular society (as opposed to persuading just Catholics) the issue of contraception should be put aside (except, of course, that abortifacient "contraception" should be called by its right name of abortion and fought as such).

6 posted on 09/01/2003 7:25:55 PM PDT by VeritatisSplendor
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To: Polycarp
Furthermore, it is at best very misleading to say that contraception is of the same "character" as abortion. As sins, they are incommensurable. As a matter of personal moral development, it is correct to say that accepting contraception is a necessary preliminary to accepting abortion, simply because no one who accepts the teaching on contraception would deny the teaching on abortion, but that's politically irrelevant.
10 posted on 09/01/2003 7:32:55 PM PDT by VeritatisSplendor
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To: Polycarp
These off the wall extremists, Taliban without turbans, like the writer start off with a plan, the old "slippery slope plan."

They will start with something patently offensive, partial birth abortion.

Then if they can ban that, they will start month by month to move that back to totally outlaw abortion.

Then if they can do that they want to outlaw contraception.

Then I would not be surprised if their next step is to declare a miniumum number of children per couple to be considered "moral persons". If medically that is impossible for an individual then perhaps they will set up a Church court to consider granting an exception, but only if you get a doctor's note.

12 posted on 09/01/2003 7:34:05 PM PDT by John Beresford Tipton
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To: Polycarp
Kinda strange that this issue was brought up tonight because I spent the day cleaning up the attic and was looking through some old women magazines from the 60's.

What got me was in either a McCall's or Ladies Home Journal there was an article attacking Pope Paul for his Contraception decision. It just seemed so out of character for the type of magazine it was (Cosmo I could understand) and so into character attacks on the Pope that even though I have no opinion on the matter it reminded me of the left's coordinated attack tactics of today.
34 posted on 09/01/2003 8:57:59 PM PDT by Swiss
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To: Polycarp
Outstanding article.

See private reply (coming shortly)
36 posted on 09/01/2003 9:07:59 PM PDT by kidd
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To: Polycarp
Great job, excellent article. A point that needs to be made.

But more than just making a point, this is a truth that needs to be defended in real life. The pro-life movement has been nothing but 30 years of failure. Pragmatism has gotten us nothing. Incrementalism has gotten us nothing. Moral betrayal has gotten us nothing. So why not try honesty, courage, and the truth? What does the pro-life movement have to lose?
43 posted on 09/01/2003 11:16:24 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Polycarp
Good old Protestant contraceptive is needed here.
48 posted on 09/02/2003 4:16:04 AM PDT by tkathy
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To: Polycarp
BUMP to the topp for the Bishop of Smyrna.
49 posted on 09/02/2003 4:28:36 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew (How many lemmings does it take to build a darwinist house?)
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To: Polycarp
Good piece. I think you're quite correct, and that a significant weakness in the "political" pro-life movement is that there always seems to be the silent qualifier "... until it interferes with anyone's responsibility-free sexual behavior." Amoral sexuality is pagan, and so is child-killing.
50 posted on 09/02/2003 5:01:49 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Aloysius; Andrew65; AniGrrl; Antoninus; As you well know...; BBarcaro; ..
PING
54 posted on 09/02/2003 9:39:34 AM PDT by Loyalist (Our civilization is dying, and the barbarians are at the gate.)
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To: Polycarp
The author seems to place greater value on the coercive enforcement of what he regards as moral behavior, rather than on the liberty of man. What is the virtue in a society that abides by God's will, if it must be done at the point of a gun? And, is such a society really abiding by God's will? How does that differ from the Taliban? It is a different religion, but the same same tyranny is justified in the same manner.

The purpose of government is to secure the rights of the people in its society. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not my neighbors are using a rubber. It has everything to do with defending the lives of people to whom the government serves.

“…by incremental lowering of the ‘least common denominators’ to being Pro-life. The most obvious and most debated lowering is in allowing exceptions for the ‘hard cases’ of rape, incest, and the life of the mother”

I am with the author, in that I see no moral or legal reason why abortion should be permissible in cases of rape or incest. Whether conceived by consentual sex between 2 non-related individuals or by way of rape or incest, the baby is still a person, endowed by his/her creator (nature, God, the mother, etc.) with inalienable rights, including the right to life. Where I do not understand the author’s reasoning is where he takes issue with the “life of the mother” exception. Assuming that there is a situation in which continuing a pregnancy would kill the mother, what could be the possible objection to aborting or some other procedure to terminate the growth within the womb? Is there no such thing as self-defense?

”That case held that married couples have a ‘privacy’ right to purchase contraceptives. To this day, Constitutional scholars openly concede that there was simply no foundation or precedent for such a ruling, but there was also no means to stop the Justices from imposing their morals on the nation.”

Does anyone have a link to the concessions of those Constitutional scholars? I would be interested in reading their reasoning.

”The pro-life movement cannot stop judges from ‘playing God’ in courtrooms or women from ‘playing God’ with their unborn babies if they insist on ‘playing God’ in their homes using contraception and birth control.”

Contraception and birth control are measures taken to prevent conception. Why are these on the same moral level as killing babies? In the former, nobody’s rights are violated. In the latter, a baby’s right to life is clearly violated.

56 posted on 09/02/2003 10:15:03 AM PDT by Voice in your head ("The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." - Thucydides)
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To: Polycarp
While I largely agree with your article, I also have some trouble with it as a matter of political tactics. Not because the link between abortion and contraception shouldn't be made - it should be made forcefully and frequently.

The problem I have is the "How do we get there from here" part.

In answer to this question, I think the best tactic is to fall back on the Natural Law, rather than address it in a way that relies upon Church history (not that Church history can't play a role - it can and should - but that need not be the main rhetorical thrust).

The Natural Law on this issue is very simple. The purpose of sex is procreation. If you're engaging in sex in a way that intentionally blocks the procreative purpose, you're committing a perversion against the Natural Law.

All the moral and social consequences that follow from that are the same ones identified several places above. When you create a society that systematically violates the Natural Law, you would obviously expect social decay and even social breakdown in some areas (witness the growing acceptance of homosexual "marriage," sexualization of ever younger children, and now a growing "polyamorist" movement). That's the importance of Natural Law in a secular society. It allows you to address moral problems, even among conflicting moral views, by drawing on the experience of our shared humanity.

Obviously the Christian teachings on the matter are richer and fuller, and Christians should eagerly engage anyone (especially their fellow Church members) with a willingness to brag about how true and right the Church has always been about this issue. That would be a welcome shift from the currently pervasive embarrassed avoidance of it.

I think the main problem here is two-fold. The first part is that most people truly have separated sex from procreation. They see them as virtually unrelated things. Getting them to see them as one is going to be one heck of a struggle all its own, but it's an essential foundation to any progress against contraception.

The second problem is sexual obsession bordering on addiction. Even when they realize and admit it's wrong, there are going to be a LOT of people who refuse to change anyway (and don't think these will all be liberal Democrats). Many (perhaps even most) will still want their sex for recreation, rather than procreation.

I think we can do something about the first problem. The second is trickier. Part of it stems from the "culture of death" mindset, which has conditioned most people to see lots of children as a burden and a sadness rather than a blessing and a joy. When people want 1 or 2 children (or none at all), an anti-contraception ("contra-contraception?" Or perhaps just "ception"?) message seems to hedge them into a life of celibacy. The way this mindset pervades so many aspects of our culture is dizzying. Modern people don't realize that we live in the most sexually obsessed culture the world has ever seen. The fact that it has simultaneously lead to such an anti-child culture is a perversion worthy of Satan himself.

64 posted on 09/02/2003 11:37:10 AM PDT by Snuffington
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To: Polycarp
mmThe issue of contraception was never credibly debated because many of the movement’s founders were evangelical Protestants who held that the issue had already been ‘settled,’ in spite of the historic Christian traditions to the contrary.

I believe this to be true. It has never been fully examined. However, the quixotic comprehensive "culture of life" has never been fully examined. If it had been examined and studied, it would be widely publicised that a comprehensive "culture of life" has NEVER existed on the planet Earth at any time in history. Just a few examples:

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not unilaterally demonized women who are pregnant, but not married.

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not stigmatize children born out of wedlock as "bastards" and illegitimate (how can a human being, in God's likeness, be "illegitimate"?). It would not have singled out these children of God for discrimination and public shame.

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not support the law-of-the-jungle mentality in financial and resource distribution. (Laws of the jungle dictate that the weak must be sacrificed for the survival of the strong.)

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not advocate, aid and abet father abandonment of offspring, such as the children born of unions during wartime excursions in foreign lands (as has been the US policy in Asia and before that the policy of all European empirical excursions).

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not hide, aid and abet rapists and child rapists among its heirarchy. ___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not allow millions of mostly women and children to starve in poor coutries while selling arms for profit to spread more misery and internal strife in poor areas.

___A comprehensive "culture of life" would not have supported slavery and near slavery, nor would it have supported race and gender apartheid in education and economic opportunities.

In short, to single out contraception without looking at all the cultural instetutions we have supported and continue to support which are not anything near to supporting the concept of the value of every human life, is shortsighted and hypocritical. There is much we have not fully and credibly debated.

74 posted on 09/02/2003 1:21:54 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Polycarp
May I suggest three things that I do not believe were explicit in the article.

First, with no government or court approval whatsoever, we may refuse to practice any form of birth control, maximize the number of our children and raise them dedicated to the entire agenda and to raise their large families similarly and so on through the generations. As we well know, our opponents will not emulate this tactic. We will have as allies the hard-core Chassidic Jews (average 9 kids per family), the hard core of the Islamic faith who have similar birth rates and the hard core of the evangelicals and pentecostals who also have high birth rates and whose literature racks and stores increasingly carry books urging couples to trust God and turn their backs on the contraceptive mentality.

Second, many, many serious religious believers do not understand the science of the birth control pill and the science of the IUD, both of which function as abortifacients and NOT as contraceptives. More babies are killed by these two methods than by a multiple of all surgical abortions. Most folks do not want this news. Our job is to make sure they get this news anyway. Fully informed, under our post-Griswold, post-Roe culture and "laws", they can make the decision to kill or not to kill their children. That decision is not a mere decision as to whether to have children or how many to have.

Third, we must convert "Catholics" to the Catholic Faith once again, replacing dissenters with Catholics.

Demography will take care of the rest.

75 posted on 09/02/2003 1:40:42 PM PDT by BlackElk (Lakota Nation Seek Out and Destroy Namibian Expeditionary Forces in US)
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To: Polycarp
Let me contribute...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/638293/posts

99 posted on 09/02/2003 5:27:33 PM PDT by Hotdog
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To: Polycarp
Seems like you are playing God.heaven or hell.
199 posted on 09/04/2003 9:09:08 PM PDT by fatima (Jim,Karen,We are so proud of you.Thank you for all you do for our country.4th ID)
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To: Polycarp
So there is no 'spectrum' to pro-life beliefs? So if someone, for example, believes that abortion should only be available if the life of the mother is medically at stake, are they 'dumbed down' or simply not considered pro-life?
203 posted on 09/05/2003 12:02:11 PM PDT by MEGoody
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