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Freeper Research Project: Enoch and Astronomy
8/27/03 | Various Freepers

Posted on 08/27/2003 11:33:41 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl

Several Freepers are engaged in a research project to evaluate whether the book of astronomy in 1 Enoch gives the modern day reader any clues concerning its authenticity. Perhaps you would like to participate in the research or keep tabs with the progress as we move along.

Enoch is quoted directly in the book of Jude and about 100 passages in the New Testament are rooted in the 1 Enoch phrasing.

Why is the authenticity of Enoch relevant to Christians today?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

Obviously we are in a time of unprecedented knowledge and travel, thus many have been curious whether the hidden text mentioned in Daniel has already been revealed to any extent.

Some have proposed that the Bible Code (Equidistant Letter Sequence) is the hidden text mentioned in Daniel. So far I believe the search has been limited to a simple matrix but there was some talk of looking for any patterns in a holographic. As I recall, Newton suspected there was a code in the Pentateuch.

Still others have mentioned the book of Enoch which was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethopia and further authenticated by copies found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). Enoch begins:

The blessing of Enoch; with which he blessed the elect and the righteous who would be present on the day of tribulation at (the time of) the removal of all the ungodly ones. And Enoch, the blessed and righteous man of the Lord, took up (his parable) while his eyes were open and he saw, and said "(This is) a holy vision from the heavens which the angels showed me; and I heard from them everything and I understood. I look not for this generation but for the distant one that is coming. I speak about the elect ones and concerning them. (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Volume I, 1 Enoch)

Chaps. 72-82 The Astronomical Book, like the Book of Watchers, may date from the third century BCE; the oldest copy of it seems to have been made not long after 200 BCE. Sizable portions of the text are preserved on four copies, written in Aramaic, from Qumran cave 4. The Aramaic original appears to have been much different and much longer than the Ethiopic text, adding far more astronomical details." - James C. Vanderkam

At one time Enoch was considered Scripture but it fell into disfavor. I pulled the following excerpt from this link a few years back:

The Book of Enoch (also known as 1 Enoch) was once cherished by Jews and Christians alike, this book later fell into disfavor with powerful theologians–precisely because of its controversial statements on the nature and deeds of the fallen angels…

The theme of the Book of Enoch dealing with the nature and deeds of the fallen angels so infuriated the later Church fathers that one, Filastrius, actually condemned it openly as heresy (Filastrius, Liber de Haeresibus, no. 108). Nor did the rabbis deign to give credence to the book’s teaching about angels. Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai in the second century A.D. pronounced a curse upon those who believed it (Delitzsch, p. 223).

So the book was denounced, banned, cursed, no doubt burned and shredded–and last but not least, lost (and conveniently forgotten) for a thousand years. But with an uncanny persistence, the Book of Enoch found its way back into circulation two centuries ago.

In 1773, rumors of a surviving copy of the book drew Scottish explorer James Bruce to distant Ethiopia. True to hearsay, the Book of Enoch had been preserved by the Ethiopic church, which put it right alongside the other books of the Bible…

Though it was once believed to be post-Christian (the similarities to Christian terminology and teaching are striking), recent discoveries of copies of the book among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran prove that the book was in existence before the time of Jesus Christ. But the date of the original writing upon which the second century B.C. Qumran copies were based is shrouded in obscurity. It is, in a word, old…

There is abundant proof that Christ approved of the Book of Enoch. Over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedents in the Book of Enoch.

Another remarkable bit of evidence for the early Christians’ acceptance of the Book of Enoch was for many years buried under the King James Bible’s mistranslation of Luke 9:35, describing the transfiguration of Christ: "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son: hear him." Apparently the translator here wished to make this verse agree with a similar verse in Matthew and Mark. But Luke’s verse in the original Greek reads: "This is my Son, the Elect One (from the Greek ho eklelegmenos, lit., "the elect one"): hear him."

The "Elect One" is a most significant term (found fourteen times) in the Book of Enoch. If the book was indeed known to the apostles of Christ, with its abundant descriptions of the Elect One who should "sit upon the throne of glory" and the Elect One who should "dwell in the midst of them," then the great scriptural authenticity is accorded to the Book of Enoch when the "voice out of the cloud" tells the apostles, "This is my Son, the Elect One"–the one promised in the Book of Enoch.

The Book of Jude tells us in vs. 14 that "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied…" Jude also, in vs. 15, makes a direct reference to the Book of Enoch (2:1), where he writes, "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly…" …

Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)–directly referencing the Enochian writings.

Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.

Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalso–also approved of and supported the Enochian writings…

One by one the arguments against the Book of Enoch fade away. The day may soon arrive when the final complaints about the Book of Enoch’s lack of historicity and "late date" are also silenced by new evidence of the book’s real antiquity.

Here is a current day Jewish perspective on Enoch:

The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE. The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (see below).

The Dead Sea ScrollsBy Ayala Sussman and Ruth Peled

The Qumran sect's origins are postulated by some scholars to be in the communities of the Hasidim, the pious anti-Hellenistic circles formed in the early days of the Maccabees. The Hasidim may have been the precursors of the Essenes, who were concerned about growing Hellenization and strove to abide by the Torah.

Archeological and historical evidence indicates that Qumran was founded in the second half of the second century B.C.E., during the time of the Maccabean dynasty. A hiatus in the occupation of the site is linked to evidence of a huge earthquake. Qumran was abandoned about the time of the Roman incursion of 68 C.E., two years before the collapse of Jewish self-government in Judea and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E….

The historian Josephus relates the division of the Jews of the Second Temple period into three orders: the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. The Sadducees included mainly the priestly and aristocratic families; the Pharisees constituted the Jay circles; and the Essenes were a separatist group, part of which formed an ascetic monastic community that retreated to the wilderness. The exact political and religious affinities of each of these groups, as well as their development and interrelationships, are still relatively obscure and arc the source of widely disparate scholarly views.

Here is Tertullian’s explanation of why Enoch didn’t make it into the canon:

Early Church Father, Tertullian 155-160 CE

The Book of Enoch & the Church Fathers

Tertullian, for example, wrote, "I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather's "grace in the sight of God," and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

"If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

"But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired". By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude."

An opinion from the Later Day Saints corner:

Modern scholars, beginning with Laurence, all date the origin of the book to the first or second century before Christ, hence it is assigned to the "pseudepigrapha," meaning it is not believed to have been written by the named author. It is dated using standard "scholarly" methods. One rule of dating used by modern scholars, is that if anything is prophesied which turns out to be correct, it must have been written after the event, because otherwise the author would really have to have been a prophet! This complete rejection of the entire concept of revelation forced Laurence to put the authorship of the Book of Enoch extremely late because he saw that it prophesied not only the existence of Parthia (250 B.C.), but even the reign of King Herod the Great, which began in 37 B.C. On the other hand, it was quoted by the Savior and his apostles so it must have been written before their time. Thus Laurence inferred that the book had been written "before the rise of Christianity; most probably at an early period of the reign of Herod."[8] More modern scholarship has concluded that the book was probably written by several authors over the period of about 180-64 B.C.[9] This extremely recent authorship date of course raises the question of how such a late forgery could have been so totally accepted as genuine in just a few decades, which has never been adequately explained.

In this article, let us consider the outrageous possibility that the work was actually originally written by the prophet Enoch long before the Great Flood and contains many genuine revelations.[10] It probably also contains some interpolations of men, and has suffered from mistakes introduced by the many hand-made transcriptions. But for the purposes of this article, when it says that an angel revealed to Enoch a divine calendar, those statements will be taken at face value. One scientific way to test a hypothesis is to assume it is true and examine the consequences. Let us now apply that method to the astronomy contained in the Book of Enoch.

For our own counsel, we Freepers may be able to shed some light on the antiquity of Enoch by looking at the book of astronomy.

1 Enoch contains various statements about astronomy which are strangely accurate considering the known age of the manuscript and the language. Page 14 of the following article dates fragment 4Q208, which is from a Qumran copy of 1 Enoch in the book of astronomy section as paleographic age 200 B.C. and is carbon-dated, calibrated 166-102 BC and 186-92 BC.

Radiocarbon dating of scrolls and linen fragments (pdf)

To put it in context, the Essenes at Qumran were evidently piously anti-Hellenistic, which is to say they strongly resisted the influence of Greece – so much so they went into the wilderness. The other two main sects of Jews after they returned from Babylon were Pharisees and Sadducees. So, in terms of influence on the 1 Enoch book of astronomy – if it were a fabrication – the possible influences would include Babylonia and to a lesser extent Greece. Here are the strange observations concerning astronomy recorded in 1 Enoch:

That the light of the moon is a reflection from the sun: "Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which direction of the bright sun it is beamed." 1 Enoch 78:10

Research on the forum indicates that the earliest notion that the moon was reflecting light from the sun can be traced to Greece, ca 450 B.C. Anaxagores of Clazomenae. That date would be plenty early enough for an original from which the Qumran copy would be made. The counter point would be the anti-Hellenistic attitude of the Essenes, but then again, they may not have known the origin of the idea.

Orbits. We know that the moon orbits the sun and the sun orbits the Milky Way. It is very strange (to me) that Enoch would say: "They [sun and moon] do not depart from their orbit, neither increase or decrease it; but they keep faith one with another; in accordance with an oath they set and they rise." – 1 Enoch 41:5

Research on the forum shows the earliest notion of heliocentricity came from Greece - Aristarchus of Samos (fl 320-250 B.C.) but that his views were not prominently held until Ptolemy in 150 B.C.

Aristotle (384 - 322 B.C.)

Aristarchus of Samos (fl. 320 - 250 BC)


The carbon-dating of 186 B.C. would have to be too old by at least 36 years and even so, the orbit information would need to migrate from Greece to an original Aramaic or Hebrew/Aramaic manuscript to Qumran to be copied to Aramaic. In the alternative, if the 1 Enoch is fake, then the author had to subscribe to the minority view of Aristarchus of Samos, thus not only being Hellenistic but extremely so.

That the sun and moon generate energy: "they do not economize (on energy), for their very essence generates new power." – 1 Enoch 41:7

Research has not begun on this issue.

That the sun shines even when it is not seen: "And neither does it diminish (in respect to its brightness) not take rest but continue to run day and night. – 1 Enoch 72: 36

Research has not begun on this issue.

That stars come into existence and die by becoming lightening – a possible reference to stellar evolution or supernovae: "And I saw another thing regarding lightening: how some stars arise and become lightening and cannot dwell with the rest." 1 Enoch 44

If Enoch had seen a supernova from his heavenly travels, as testified in the manuscript, then he would describe it the way he did - the star explodes into light and cannot gather itself back into being the star.

Research on the forum indicates the first observation of a supernova was in China in 4 B.C. but the cause of a supernova wasn’t understood until 1054 A.D. in Japan and China.

Freeper Right Wing Professor suggested Enoch’s statement might have been a misinterpretation of a meteor (shooting star.) Further research indicates that the ancients in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria all tied meteor activity to omens and weather and knew that they fell to earth as iron, which they pursued.

We have not yet found a hint that the ancients thought stars died or that they died by becoming "lightening."

Ancient Astronomical Observations and in particular this page shows that it is difficult to separate astrology and astronomy in ancient literature.

Singularity? And then there is a reference to the end of all that there is (and beginning) which sounds like a singularity: in chapter 18 a place with no measure and no content, a pit "where the heavens come together." He records that the angel explained [v. 14] "this is the ultimate end of heaven and earth; it is the prison house for the stars and the powers of heaven…"

Research has not begun on this issue.

Was Enoch Hellenized, and if so would that be enough to explain these strange observations about astronomy?

Alexander liberated Israel from the Persian empire around 300 BC and thus from that point forward, the Jews traveled freely in the Greek world and many became culturally Hellenized (paraphrased from a post by PatrickHenry.) There is a Scholar, Chris King, who believes Enoch is Hellenistic and that explains everything:

The Apocryphal Book of Enoch

1 Enoch is an unmistakable product of Hellenistic civilization. A world view so encyclopaediac that it embraced the geography of heaven and earth, astronomy, meteorology, medicine was no part of Jewish tradition - but was familiar to educated Greeks, but attempting to emulate and surpass Greek wisdom, by having an integrating divine plan for destiny, elaborated through an angelic host with which Enoch is in communication through his mystical travels. - Chris King.

IOW, if 1 Enoch is a fake, at the minimum, the writer of Enoch must have been familiar with Greek philosophy.

The main Jewish/Greek philosopher prior to 150 BC was Philo. And I believe he would have either written in Hebrew or Greek. The book of Enoch at Qumran was copied in Aramaic. Some scholars believe the original Enoch may have been a combination of Hebrew and Aramaic like the book of Daniel.

Since the Essenes went into the wilderness to escape the Hellenization, the counter-point is whether they would have intentionally brought a Hellenized text with them. Or if they believed the text was "kosher" – then there are two significant counter-points:

1. The Jewish calendar is 360 days/year whereas the Enochian calendar calls for 364.

Enoch: a brief textual history

The third Enochian book, the Book of Astronomy, is considered the oldest of those preserved, thought to have been written well before the second century. It contains a description of the structure of the universe as well as the details of a 364 day solar calendar, a calendar that seems to have been popular especially in the Dead Sea Scrolls although it is well supported by another pseudepigraphic book, Jubilees.

2. Enoch does not mention Moses specifically and contains no contextual reference to Jewish traditions present in typical pseudepigraphal manuscripts. If the book were written after Moses by a Jewish author, such would be expected because the Jewish traditions would be second nature. Indeed, a Slavonic version of the Enoch, 2 Enoch, is presumed to have been originally written in Greek because the phrasing gives away clues of both the Greek language and culture.

In other words, if Enoch were authentic we would expect it to not include more than prophetic metaphoric references to Moses or Jewish law or Babylon, Greece, Rome, etc.

The Apocryphal Book of Enoch

"One of the most remarkable features of 1 Enoch is that the law revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai plays almost no part in it at all. It could be objected that it would be more surprising if it did have a role, since 1 Enoch is, of course, about Enoch who lived before the flood (see Gen 5:21-24) and thus long before the law was revealed. The argument would be that the authors of 1 Enoch were consistent about their pseudepigraphic attribution of the material to Enoch and therefore did not commit the anachronism of having him teach and obey the law of Moses.

"But there is a flaw in that argument because at least two places in the book should mention the law revealed on Mt. Sinai. The two places are in the two principal apocalypses, the Apocalypse of Weeks and the Animal Apocalypse. Both of these revelations cover the period when Israel was in the wilderness and, according to the pentateuch, received the covenantal law." - James C. Vanderkam

One comment with regard to Vanderkam's comment: the Enochian Apocalypse of Weeks is a prophesy (forward looking) and thus, IMHO, would not contain more than it does:

93.1 And, after this, Enoch began to speak from the books:

93.2 And Enoch said: "Concerning the sons of righteousness, and concerning the chosen of the world, and concerning the plant of righteousness and uprightness, I will speak these things to you, and make them known to you, my children. I, Enoch, according to that which appeared to me in the Heavenly vision, and that which I know from the words of the Holy Angels, and understanding from the Tablets of Heaven."

93.3 And Enoch then began to speak from the books, and said: "I was born the seventh, in the first week, while justice and righteousness still lasted.

93.4 And, after me, in the second week, great injustice will arise, and deceit will have sprung up. And in it there will be the First End, and in it, a man will be saved. And after it has ended, iniquity will grow, and He will make a law for the sinners.

93.5 And after this in the third week, at its end, a man will be chosen as the Plant of Righteous Judgment, and after him will come the Plant of Righteousness, forever.

93.6 And after this, in the fourth week, at its end, visions of the righteous and Holy will be seen, and a Law for All Generations, and an enclosure will be made for them.

93.7 And after this, in the fifth week, at its end, a House of Glory and Sovereignty will be built forever.

93.8 And after this, in the sixth week, all those who live in it will be blinded. And the hearts of them all, lacking wisdom, will sink into impiety. And in it, a man will ascend, and at its end the House of Sovereignty will be burnt with fire. And in it the whole race of the chosen root will be scattered.

93.9 And after this, in the seventh week, an apostate generation will arise. And many will be its deeds - but all its deeds will be apostasy.

93.10 And at its end, the Chosen Righteous, from the Eternal Plant of Righteousness, will be chosen, to whom will be given sevenfold teaching, concerning his whole creation.

The other thing of course is that over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedence in Enoch and Enoch is quoted directly in Jude. So, to the New Testament - Enoch is authentic. The difficulty after 2,000 years is piecing together "the" Enoch.

There are two other Enochs - one is Slavonic, 2 Enoch, and the other, 3 Enoch, is a Hebrew Apocalypse of that name written by Rabbi Ishmael in 132 A.D. (approx). Because of that date and known authorship, 3 Enoch isn't relevant to this project.

1 Enoch - is the oldest and most complete. It was first discovered in Ethiopia (in the Ge'ez language) where it had been preserved but was then confirmed by the finding of the 200 B.C. Aramaic copies at Qumran. 1 Enoch as found in Qumran is the best candidate for the one referenced by Jude. It is also the one with the most complete book of astronomy and thus gives us a window to date the original from which it was copied.

2 Enoch is also quite interesting, particularly in its prophesies concerning the 7,000 years allowed for Adamic man (including the 1,000 perfect era at the end.).

2 Enoch

An entirely different Enoch manuscript has survived in the Slavonic language. This text, dubbed "2 Enoch" and commonly called "the Slavonic Enoch," was discovered in 1886 by a professor Sokolov in the archives of the Belgrade Public Library. It appears that just as the Ethiopic Enoch ("1 Enoch") had escaped the sixth-century Church suppression of Enoch texts in the Mediterranean area, so a Slavonic Enoch had survived far away, long after the originals from which it was copied were destroyed or hidden away.

Specialists in the Enochian texts surmise that the missing original form which the Slavonic was copied was probably a Greek manuscript. This may have been, in turn, based on a Hebrew or Aramaic manuscript….

One of the most fascinating passages of the Slavonic Enoch is the account of the dramatization of eternity found in Chapter 33. As the world was made in six days, so its history would be accomplished in 6,000 years, and this would be followed by 1,000 years of rest, when the balance of conflicting moral forces has been struck and human life has reached the ideal state. (A reference of this conflict is also found in The War Scroll, a future battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. These writings were recently discovered in Qumran Cave 1, which are part of the collection of The Dead Sea Scrolls). At the close of this 7,000 year cycle would begin the 8th Eternal Day, when time should be no more…

Personally, I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ on physical earth (Revelation 20:2-3) is the seventh thousand referred to in 2 Enoch, because it precedes the eternal, new heaven and earth (Revelation 21.)

However, Enoch – like Revelation – contains many metaphors and parables and is therefore particularly difficult to read.

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To: Alamo-Girl
For similar reasons I'm a pre-trib believer.

Again, this is speculation, but it is almost as if God is trying to give Satan a fair fight.

"Look, I'll take up all the believers first - before you even get there. I will prove to you that love conquers all - without a single believer on the Earth you will be undone by faith."

Again, the above is speculation and opinion, and it is not something taken from scripture.

I can't tell you how many days I've just looked up and said, "What is taking you so long?"

I am not an advocate for letting all of these pre-tribulation signs happen, but I do believe they have to come to pass.

New question - Ezekiel's War. Will all of this happen before or after Ezekiel's War?
101 posted on 08/29/2003 6:41:15 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: Alamo-Girl
I bought a copy of the Book of Enoch a couple years ago for its ties to Gen 6 - I am most interested in the nephilim etc and have looked into that subject quite a bit. I've never paid close attention to the astronomical from Enoch so this thread is fascinating. Now I have to backtrack to my placemarker post and catch up from there. :)
102 posted on 08/29/2003 7:41:30 AM PDT by agrace
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To: PatrickHenry
Great catch! Thank you so much! That went right past me last night - as he was emphasizing the Babylonian advances in mathematics. Jeepers!
103 posted on 08/29/2003 7:47:59 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Junior
Thank you so much for bumping by! Hugs!
104 posted on 08/29/2003 7:49:21 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: mitch5501
Thank you so very much for your kind words, the pre-trib passage and most especially, for the blessing! May God abundantly bless you always!

I'm so very glad you also find that some of these ancient texts magnify the Bible! They certainly do to me - it seems like the more I learn, the more I want to learn.

I look forward to reading your thoughts!

105 posted on 08/29/2003 7:56:33 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: RinaseaofDs
Thank you so much for sharing your views on the rapture and tribulation!

In my opinion, it is the Holy Spirit in the world today that keeps the tribulation from coming:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: - II Thess 2:7-8

That is why the parable of the Ten Virgins is significant to me. In my interpretation, those who have the indwelling of the Spirit will be raptured up with the Holy Spirit. There will be others – who believed but chose self-will over God’s will by resisting the indwelling of the Spirit; these I believe are the ones who will be left behind and will by martyred in the Tribulation.

I am one of those who prays earnestly before resisting the pre-trib events. I do this because of what happened to Peter when he worked against the will of God with all good intentions:

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. - Matthew 16:22-23

I don't have an interpretation with regard to Ezekiel's War, but would very much like to read yours!

I join you in anticipation of the rapture … any moment now. Hugs!!!

106 posted on 08/29/2003 8:14:11 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: agrace
Thank you for your post! I'm so glad you've taken an interest in this project. I look forward to all of your thoughts!
107 posted on 08/29/2003 8:21:34 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: All
I do hate to post and run, but I have to pick up family who are spending the Holiday weekend. I'll check in as often as possible.

Much gratitude to all of you participating and following this thread. Hugs!

108 posted on 08/29/2003 8:23:14 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; All
This is a link to a site that has a translation of the books of Enoch as well as other texts.


109 posted on 08/29/2003 5:39:28 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Alamo-Girl
Check this out: Ancient India's Contribution to ASTRONOMY. It's a bit foggy, but it may be that India preceded the Greeks with a heliocentric theory.
110 posted on 08/29/2003 6:23:36 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Thank you so much for the link! Hugs!
111 posted on 08/29/2003 8:23:37 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: PatrickHenry
Thank you so much for the research, PatrickHenry! I'm anxious to read it, but it might be tomorrow until I get a chance. Hugs!
112 posted on 08/29/2003 8:25:34 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Nakatu X; Right Wing Professor; RadioAstronomer; PatrickHenry; general_re; js1138; ...
Enoch contains various statements about astronomy which are strangely accurate considering the known age of the manuscript and the language.

When interpreting writings from the past, it is often too easy to read into it one's own knowledge instead of the writer's actual meaning. As any student bluffing his way through a humanities test knows, for any arbitrary novel one can find plausible-sounding textual "matches" for just about any concept imaginable without much difficulty. (The classic example is "The Wizard of Oz" as a metaphor for the debate over monetary policy)

This is also a problem for the "Bible Codes" you mention earlier -- even in the random text formed by the "matrix" methods of the Bible Codes, one can "find" passages that seem to parallel known events. That this is mere "you can find whatever you look for" is demonstrated by the ability to do the same with the book Moby Dick (2) or the Hebrew translation of "War and Peace". More...

So care must be taken not to read spurious "matches" of modern astronomy in the symbology of various passages in ancient writings, unless the writings are unambiguous enough that the "prescient" interpretation seems more likely than a more prosaic and era-appropriate one.

It's also easy to call something "strangely accurate" if we underestimate how much would have been pretty obvious to an astute observer living at the time.

That the light of the moon is a reflection from the sun: "Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which direction of the bright sun it is beamed." 1 Enoch 78:10

I'm not sure if it's safe to interpret this as a statement that the light from the Moon is entirely *reflected* light. Even reading it literally as translated above, it sounds more like light that is transferred *into* the Moon, like a charging battery, to be released out later. Furthermore, it's not clear that even if some ancient peoples realized that the amount of light the Moon "shines" *could* be produced by reflected light. The Moon produces a *huge* illumination on a dark night, enough to read by and cast shadows. Nothing in ancient man's experiences would acquaint them with "reflections" of such magnitude. Even a brightly lit mountainside does not produce noticeable "rays" of light like the Moon does. Nor would they think that the Sun's light *could* reflect from the moon at night, since they had mistaken ideas about how close the Moon and Sun were, and they would have believed that the bulk of the Earth would block the Moon from the Sun's light when the Moon was up and the Sun was down.

Other passages in Enoch give the distinct impression that the Moon is powered independently by God in the same manner as the Sun and stars, and not through light "bounced" from the Sun:

has Uriel shown and revealed to me, to whom the Lord of the whole creation of the world hath subjected the host of heaven. And he has power over night and day in the heaven to cause the light to give light to men -sun, moon, and stars, (Enoch 82:7-8)

And after this law I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon. And her circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and her chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure. (Enoch 73:1)

And the chambers of the winds, and how the winds are divided, and how they are weighed, and (how) the portals of the winds are reckoned, each according to the power of the wind, and the power of the lights of the moon (Enoch 60:12)

Much more likely, I think the above passage from Enoch is a bit of a mistranslation of the original meaning. (Speaking of which, where did you get the above translation? A Google search for the phrase "when light is beamed into the moon" turns up no hits at all except an earlier FreeRepublic thread.)

Looking to this translation, the same passage is rendered as: "And Uriel showed me another law: when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun." Similar, but with significant differences.

But in light of (no pun intended) what immediately follows in Enoch, I think that both of the above are poor translations of the actual meaning. Instead of "when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun", I think that what best fits the passages which follow would be, "when light grows in the Moon, and on which side of the sun it is grown in her", or in more modern language perhaps even "when the Moon grows in brightness, and when brightness goes from her, depending on which side of the Sun."

Why do I think this? Because the Enoch passages which immediately follow concern the observation that when the Moon is waxing (i.e., growing brighter from the New Moon to the Full Moon), it is always *behind* the Sun in the sky (i.e., rises last), but when it is waning (i.e. growing dimmer from the Full Moon back to the New Moon) it is always *ahead* of the Sun in the sky (i.e., rises first).

This well-known (and to ancient man, obvious) fact is described at the bottom of Moon Phases, in the section entitled "Moon Phase Comparison".

Here's the whole passage from Enoch, along with my annotations in [brackets]:

And Uriel showed me another law: when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun. [i.e., which side of the sun the Moon is on when its light grows, and when its light fades] During all the period during which the moon is growing in her light [waxing from the new moon to the full moon], she is transferring it to herself [growing in brightness] when opposite to the sun [*following* the sun through the sky -- "opposite" isn't even correct, the moon is only "opposite" the sun when it's a full moon, which is correctly described below] during fourteen days her light is accomplished in the heaven [i.e. it takes 14 days to grow from the dark new moon to the bright full moon], and when she is illumined throughout, her light is accomplished full in the heaven [the moon is as bright as it can be at the time of the full moon]. And on the first day she is called the new moon, for on that day the light rises upon her [either: the new moon rises *with* the sun (correct), or: the moon's light begins to grow the day after it has become the new moon]. She becomes full moon exactly on the day when the sun sets in the west, and from the east she rises at night [i.e., the sun and moon are exactly opposite at the time of the full moon, the full moon is rising just as the sun sets], and the moon shines the whole night through till the sun rises over against her and the moon is seen over against the sun ["against" the sun being on opposite sides still, but this time the full moon setting as the sun again rises -- this may also be stressing that the moon has now become "ahead" of the sun in the sky]. On the side [of the sun] whence the light of the moon comes forth [now *ahead* of the sun in the sky], there again she wanes till all the light vanishes and all the days of the month are at an end, and her circumference is empty, void of light [until she fades back to the new moon and the cycle repeats].
I'd like to know what original-language words were translated into "opposite" the sun and "against" the sun -- if translated respectively into "behind/following/eastward" relative to the sun and "ahead/leading/westward" relative to the sun, the above passage perfectly describes the positions of the moon in relation to the sun as it waxes and then wanes in its lunar cycle. A shorter description of this same observation occurs in Enoch 74:
In single seventh parts she [the Moon] accomplishes [gains] all her light in the east [of the Sun, following it through the sky], and in single seventh parts accomplishes all her darkness in the west [of the Sun].
This is further bolstered by the fact that the (Chapter 78) passage immediately *before* the one under discussion describes in boring detail the manner in which the moon's light waxes and wanes through each day of its 28/29 day cycle. All of chapter 78 is a close examination of behavior of the Moon's phase changes.

Orbits. We know that the moon orbits the sun and the sun orbits the Milky Way. It is very strange (to me) that Enoch would say: "They [sun and moon] do not depart from their orbit, neither increase or decrease it; but they keep faith one with another; in accordance with an oath they set and they rise." – 1 Enoch 41:5

I see nothing in this passage that warrants such a reading. Several times in Enoch he describes in great detail the exact motions and positions, and the mechanical predictability of the paths of the Sun and Moon, with respect to the days, the seasons, the years, and each other's movements. Chapter 72, for example, is a startlingly detailed account of how the point of sunrise/sunset on the horizon changes across the course of a year, and how the length of the day relative to the length of the night varies throughout the year. It's so detailed that one could use it to calculate with a fair degree of precision which latitude the observations were made from. And in Chapter 74, he apparently attempts to calculate what is today called the Saros Cycle, but gets the wrong answer because he's working with faulty measurements (given to him by the "Angel", *cough*). Nonetheless, it shows a good observational knowledge of the manner in which the cycles of the sun and moon come inevitably and eternally in and out of phase, and it is this fixed relationship which the author of Enoch seems to be pointing out when he speaks of their cycles being "not departed" (i.e. unchanging) and "keep faith with one another" (i.e. consistent in their relative timings).

That the sun and moon generate energy: "they do not economize (on energy), for their very essence generates new power." – 1 Enoch 41:7

My source translates that quite differently: "And they give thanks and praise and rest not; For unto them is their thanksgiving rest." Without going back to the original language it's hard to tell which, if either, of these renderings is more accurate -- they have quite different meanings.

In any case, the Moon hardly "generates new power". It's a pretty dead world, and the amount of residual heat from nuclear decay is quite small and has no effect on the Earth. As you point out earlier, it only shines by reflected light from the Sun.

That the sun shines even when it is not seen: "And neither does it diminish (in respect to its brightness) not take rest but continue to run day and night. – 1 Enoch 72: 36

My source translates that as:

As he [the Sun] rises, so he sets and decreases not, and rests not, but runs day and night, and his light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal.
I think it's safe to interpret the "decreases not" passage as saying that the Sun doesn't change in brightness as it traverses the sky (unlike the example of the Moon, which unmistakably varies), but I'm not sure if the "rests not but runs night and day" can be read to be a statement about its light continuing during the night.

Instead, I think it's being pretty literal -- the sun keeps "running" (i.e., moving) during the times we can no longer see it. That fits with the "rests" part: Ancient man would think that continued movement took energy, because they got tired when they themselves ran, but wouldn't necessarily think that continuing to shine was tiresome or would require "rest".

This is further supported by the amount of time Enoch spends talking about the movement of the Sun, and even claims to know the path it takes in order to return from the place in the West where it sets back around to the place in the East where it needs to rise again the next morning. The above passage seems to be a reference to this perpetual motion of the Sun. Nowhere can I find any place where he unambiguously mentions whether or not he thinks the Sun continues to shine while it's out of sight. In fact, that issue seems not to interest him. He may well presume that it continues to shine -- it's a reasonable assumption given the way the Sun is known to shine constantly across many lifetimes (at least in the day) -- but he doesn't really make a clear declaration about that one way or the other.

That stars come into existence and die by becoming lightening – a possible reference to stellar evolution or supernovae: "And I saw another thing regarding lightening: how some stars arise and become lightening and cannot dwell with the rest." 1 Enoch 44

My source translates that as: "Also another phenomenon I saw in regard to the lightnings: how some of the stars arise and become lightnings and cannot part with their new form."

In either case, I think this is meant to "explain" meteorite trails. "Arise" is probably meant in the sense of "get up" from the star's resting place in the sky, not "arise" as in "to originate". So this is speaking of a star which decides to leave its spot in the sky to streak across the night sky ("become lightning"), never to return to its original resting place.

I see nothing in this passage or elsewhere in Enoch which seems to accord with any notion of new stars forming in any manner, nor even dying as such.

Singularity? And then there is a reference to the end of all that there is (and beginning) which sounds like a singularity: in chapter 18 a place with no measure and no content, a pit "where the heavens come together." He records that the angel explained [v. 14] "this is the ultimate end of heaven and earth; it is the prison house for the stars and the powers of heaven…"

It's pretty vague... My source renders this as:

And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'
Hmm, a hell for stars which didn't rise punctually, where they are tortured with fire... Must be pretty hot to torture a star, since stars are awfully hot normally...

In any case, the "no sky and no earth" passage just seems to indicate that this was beyond the edge of the outer rims of the "Earth", and thus the comment about "This place is the end of heaven and earth" seems less like a promise of universal annihilation than a simple observation about it being past "city limits" (i.e., beyond the edge of the earth and sky).

So in summation, I'm not sure if any of these passages from Enoch represent any real premonitions of modern cosmology. Most seem like pretty typical observations and presumptions for a person of that period (although clearly someone spent a lot of time making careful daily notes over the course of at least a year, and deserves much credit for that).

But there are a number of other passages that make it pretty clear that the author was working from his own human observations and surmises instead of any Special Knowledge From On High...

The first problem is that any complete reading of the book of Enoch makes totally inescapable the conclusion that the author is describing a "flat Earth with a hard bowl-shaped sky dome over it" scenario. Unlike similar passages which can be found in the books actually incorporated into the Bible which can be argued away as possibly metaphorical, in Enoch it's described in way too much careful detail for it to be read as anything other than a literal claim of a flat Earth covered by a sky dome in which the Sun and Moon and stars run their paces. The author even describes exactly how many doors and windows are in the sky dome, and where, to let the Sun/Moon/stars/winds/waters in and out, and which doors the Sun uses on which days of the year, etc. His cosmology is this:

(The above picture is from this web page, which also has a good list of the ways in which Enoch clearly influenced the writers of parts of the Bible.)

Needless to say, I don't think that counts as "statements about astronomy which are strangely accurate".

Other passages that probably seemed like good ideas at the time but which turned out not to be the case:

1. "And they took me to the living waters, and to the fire of the west, which receives every setting of the sun." (Chapter 17). No, the Sun does not set upon a place of fire. The Earth just keeps rotating and the Sun doesn't land anywhere.

2. "I saw the treasuries of all the winds." (Chapter 18). Wind isn't kept in treasuries.

3. "And I saw the corner-stone of the earth." (Ch. 18). The Earth doesn't have a cornerstone. It might if it were flat, but...

4. "I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and all the stars to their setting." (Ch. 18). Wind doesn't move the Sun and stars around, they appear to move because the Earth rotates.

5. "From thence I went to another place to the west of the ends of the earth." (Ch. 23). The Earth doesn't have "ends", and if you keep going West you only circle the Earth.

6. "And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven rests, and the portals of the heaven open. And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me." (Ch. 33). The sky/heaven does not rest upon the Earth, especially not at the "ends", there are no portals in the sky dome, and the stars do not come out of them in order to rise above the horizon.

7. "And from thence I went towards the north to the ends of the earth, and there I saw a great and glorious device at the ends of the whole earth. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain. And out of one portal they blow for good: but when they blow through the other two portals, it is with violence and affliction on the earth, and they blow with violence." (Ch. 34). Northern winds do not issue from three holes in the sky dome.

8. "And from thence I went to the east to the ends of the heaven, and saw here the three eastern portals of heaven open and small portals above them. Through each of these small portals pass the stars of heaven and run their course to the west on the path which is shown to them. And as often as I saw I blessed always the Lord of Glory" (Ch. 36). Again, there are no holes in the sky dome and the stars do not come out of them to travel across the sky each night.

9. "And there I saw closed chambers out of which the winds are divided, the chamber of the hail and winds, the chamber of the mist, and of the clouds, and the cloud thereof hovers over the earth from the beginning of the world." (Ch. 41). Wind, hail, clouds, etc. do not originate in warehouses.

10. "And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed and whither they come again" (Ch. 41). The Sun and Moon do not spend their time in storehouses when they are not visible.

11. "And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals." (Ch. 72). The Sun, Moon, and stars do not come out of doorways in the sky dome when they rise, nor duck out of doorways when they set.

12. "The chariot on which he [the Sun] ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate portal and 6 shines in the face of the heaven." (Ch. 72). The Sun does not ride a chariot, and does not get blown across the sky. Nor does it travel in a northern path outside the sky dome in order to get from its place of setting back to the place it must rise again in the morning.

13. "And the sun goes forth from that sixth portal in the west, and goes to the east and rises in the fifth portal for thirty mornings, and sets in the west again in the fifth western portal. On that day the day decreases by two parts, and amounts to ten parts and the night to eight parts." (Ch. 72). While the author does an admirable job attempting to describe the manner in which the Sun's path varies with the seasons and so do the lengths of the days, it doesn't do so by switching entry/exit "portals" on given days, nor does the length of the day stay constant for thirty days and then suddenly shift its length, it's a continuous progression.

14. "...and his [the Sun's] light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal." (Ch. 72). Clearly not divine information. The sun isn't "sevenfold" brighter than the Moon, it's 436,800 times brighter (as viewed from the surface of the Earth -- in absolute terms the disparity is even greater). And the Sun may *look* the same size as the Moon, but in reality it's almost 400 times as large in diameter. Enoch apparently figured they were the same size since they had the same apparent diameter and "must" have been at the same distance (since they both rode on the "sky dome").

15. "And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days." (Ch. 74). Well, 365.2422 days, but who's counting? I don't so much mind him missing the fraction, but somehow there's still an entire day missing from the year.

16. "In like manner twelve doors Uriel showed me, open in the circumference of the sun's chariot in the heaven, through which the rays of the sun break forth: and from them is warmth diffused over the earth, when they are opened at their appointed seasons." (Ch. 75). The Sun does not ride in a chariot, but if it did that would certainly be an ingenious way to vary its warmth in Summer versus Winter, instead of the current method of whereby the tilt of the Earth's axis affects the angle at which sunlight strikes a given spot on the Earth...

17. "And I saw chariots in the heaven, running in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set." (Ch. 75). Last time I checked, the North Star and other northerly stars that don't dip below the horizon don't ride in chariots either, nor do they rest above the three northern portals in the sky dome.

18. "And one [of the "stars that never set"] is larger than all the rest, and it is that that makes its course through the entire world." (Ch. 75). Since the Earth isnt' flat after all, Polaris can not be used to "make courses" for the "entire world", just for most of the northern hemisphere.

19. "And at the ends of the earth I saw twelve portals open to all the quarters (of the heaven), from which the winds go forth and blow over the earth." (Ch. 76). No he didn't.

20. "...and her [the Moon's] chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure". (Ch. 73). The Moon's movement is not driven by wind.

113 posted on 08/29/2003 10:44:18 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
Geez, you have outdone yourself again.

Excellent post!!

Back to stargazing with my new telescope!!
114 posted on 08/29/2003 11:39:40 PM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
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To: Ichneumon
Once again, the audience slowly and silently files out of the theatre, stunned at your performance. Absolutely one of your best!

Enoch is now reduced to sub-Hellenic status in his astronomical knowledge. Rather than being one of the early heliocentric figures in history, he has now been revealed as one of the last of the flat-earthers.

115 posted on 08/30/2003 4:15:32 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Ichneumon
Thank you so very much for your thorough analysis and views! I've just read through them once and have to leave for the biggest part of the day, but will want to spend more time with them later.

WRT your question about translations, for the most part I use Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Vol. I which represents the view of a group of scholars, i.e. not just one. I will want to research what extent your version is using the Qumran v the Ethiopian version and whether that interpretation is included in the Charlesworth collection. The Qumran copies are more complete in the book of astronomy and the Ethiopian version was translated into the Ge'ez language.

Another quick remark - the book of Enoch is very much like the book of Revelation, which is to say there are many parables and metaphors along with literal statements. Different people will walk away from these books with very much different understandings, but that is the intent of parables:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. - Matthew 13:10-11

I look forward to reviewing your analysis in more detail when I return! Thank you!!!

116 posted on 08/30/2003 6:40:10 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
A-G, lovely article... I am going to devote time this week to dissecting some parts of the book of Enoch and to relate them to the New Testament. I agree with you, though--whoever wrote the book of Enoch was most likely way ahead of his peers. God bless!
117 posted on 09/01/2003 10:27:33 AM PDT by Nataku X (Never give Bush any power you wouldn't want to give to Hillary.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Light Speed; Thinkin' Gal; Sir Gawain
The Watchers

Chapter 9

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."'


History of the star: A pale rose star marking the left eye of the Bull, Taurus.

Arabic Al Dabaran meaning "Follower", i.e. of the Pleiades, because it marked the 2d manzil or second mansion of the Moon, that followed the first, the Pleiades.

Aldebaran is the Greek Omma Boos, Latin Oculus Tauri, and the early English Bull's Eye; [Bull's-eye is what we call "the centre of a target, which usually carries the highest score", and "a precise or highly effective achievement"].

The great "red giant", war-like Aldebaran is one of the four "Guardians of Heaven" - sentinels watching over other stars. It formed one of the four royal stars of Persia as "Watcher of the East".

These were also called archangel stars;  this star Aldebaran was Michael  - Military Commander of the Heavenly Host. The others were; Gabriel (Fomalhaut) Watcher of the South; Raphael (Regulus) Watcher of the North; Oriel (Antares) Watcher of the West. At one time they marked the two Equinoxes and two Solstices. Aldebaran marked the zero Aries point in 3044 BC, Antares marked zero Libra 3052 BC, Fomalhaut marked zero Capricorn, 2582 BC, Regulus marked zero Cancer 2345 BC. These four stars have been characterized as Horses, reflected both in the famed Four Horsemen of Apocalypse (Revelations 6) and Chariot Horses in the Book of Zechariah - (Morse)

Psalm 104

1   Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2   Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3   Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4   Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5   Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Who strechest out the heavens like a curtain...

These Watchers are Elohim's Tzitzith.

Daniel 4

9   O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

10   Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
11   The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

12   The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.
13   I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

14   He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
15   Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16   Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
17   This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

18   This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen.

Nebuchadnezzar had knowledge of the 'Watchers'...

Watcher, Holy One: see Daniel 10:20,21
The dream (Dan. 4) was also directed at the prince of Persia. He was cut down, but he's back. Rev. 17:8

...and it goes on and on and on...

118 posted on 09/01/2003 10:38:10 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (613)
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To: Jeremiah Jr

Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

This verse is a dualist theme..for it speaks to Nebuchadnezzar..but also to Satan.

The indightment of Satan and the Fallen Angels appears in many other places in the Ancient Hebrew Narratives.

It marks their original marks their certain judgement..and reveals the **Time alotment this will run.

Ie...For 7 times.

There is a possibilty that the period of ** 7 the passage of 7 of the 12 precessional cycles as we mark time.

The Book of Jubilee's and other Ancient Hebrew narratives mark the appearing of the Fallen Angels.

"In the Days of Jared..they descended upon Mount Hermon". that the name Jared..or Yared in Hebrew..means to .."Descend from Above".

We are told plainly this occured...its left to us to believe or dismiss.

119 posted on 09/01/2003 12:55:36 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Nakatu X
Thank you so much for your interest and for the encouragement! I look forward to your analysis!!!

May God abundantly bless you in everything!

120 posted on 09/01/2003 7:42:26 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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