[Luis Gonzalez]

Far be it for me, an immigrant to these shores, to take issue with such a learned and revered person as William Rehnquist, but there are several things that are not quite right in his dissent, the first of which is attributing the "wall of separation" comment to Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson actually borrowed the phrase from Roger Williams, a devout Baptist who organized the government of Rhode Island around the principle of separation of the civil and ecclesiastical powers. The "hasty metaphor" appeared once more in Jefferson’s writings, as well as in the works of James Madison, who in his "Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments" warned of the encroachment of religion into the field of civil government, and pointed to already existing instances: "Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." -- Source.

I also find the dismissal of Thomas Jefferson’s ideas, the very man whose pen and mind helped author what may yet come to be known as the defining document in the history of man’s rights, based on his absence from the convention, befuddling at best. But then again, knowing that Rehnquist can dismiss Jefferson so off-handedly, helps me feel better about my equally dismissing Judge Rehnquist.

Ideas are no more constrained by geography than they are by time. If Jefferson’s ideas still hold up today, so many years after he first penned "We the People..." how could distance diminish his clarity of thought on the issue of human freedom from every sort of tyranny?

Jefferson’s absence from the Constitutional convention in no way should detract from his contributions to the American experiment; Madison, who worked on the Constitution and was present at the convention, and who drafted the first version of the Bill of Rights, worked intimately with Jefferson on his "Bill For Religious Freedom In Virginia", the defining argument for the separation of Church and State in the newly-founded United States of America, had ideas nearly identical to Jefferson on the subject.

Finally, Jefferson’s "hasty metaphor" appeared one more time, in his letter to the Virginia Baptists in 1808. We may argue as to the exact nature of the definition of "separation", but I believe that upholding that separation keeps both institutions free from the possibility of corruption, and what we should never do, is to dismiss the warnings from those men who engineered the system that enables all of us to debate this point freely, and without fear of repercussions.

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."

"We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort, which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion, which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808).

[Republic]

Would you not agree that it could be as dangerous to build a wall of separation as it could be dangerous to sanction a named course of faith when determining the course of justice within our rule of law, according to our moral system of mutual equality and responsibility?

[Robert_Paulson2]

Watch it... posting quotes from jefferson, in contraindication of the losing view, aka "dissenting" view from Judge Rehnquist... might cause some rather "on the edge" freepers, to hit the abuse button...

Also avoid quoting scriptures that confirm God's desire to keep church and state separate as well.. you know pestky things like that "render to caesar" and "render to God" stuff that Jesus talked about...

After all, moving that rock statue in Alabama today is going to mysteriously close the doors to every church in America... cause believers to go on unrestrained orgies of commandment breaking... and cause great confusion in Heaven. And here I thought God was omnipotent and omniscient!

Prayer now will apparently stop, love of fellow man and God, will come to a screeching halt and all our prayers will no longer be heard...

All because somebody moved a stone away from a particular location... in alabama... REASSERTING our nation's constitutional commitment to separation of church and state, which guarantees we will have freedom of both for generations to come.

Of course there are those of us who believe that the only "rock move" that affects or eternal, national and moral well-being, was the one that was in front of the tomb, where the Savior USED to be, before His resurrection. But don't bring that up either... after all, somebody will go ballistic and hit the "abuse" button on ya.

btw... GREAT response from Jefferson's pen.
Thanks for the quotes.

[MissAmericanPie]

"And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort, which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion, which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."--"

Perhaps Jefferson should hop out of his grave and explain how not allowing students to pray before a sports event, or at their comensements, leads to anything but quiet?

For it surely provides no comfort to the majority of citizens.

[E Rocc]

The important thing about the Danbury letter and the quote from Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments is not so much that Jefferson and Madison believed so strongly in Separation, but that both of them believed that it was established by the Constitution. Jefferson even pointed specifically at the First Amendment as its source.

-Eric

[gogeo]

Jefferson’s absence from the Constitutional convention in no way should detract from his contributions to the American experiment; Madison, who worked on the Constitution and was present at the convention, and who drafted the first version of the Bill of Rights, worked intimately with Jefferson on his "Bill For Religious Freedom In Virginia", the defining argument for the separation of Church and State in the newly-founded United States of America, had ideas nearly identical to Jefferson on the subject.

Rehnquist's point was not that Jefferson was unknowledgable; his point was that he could not speak with authority to the drafting of the amendment, having not been a participant or spectator, and offering no documentation of those who were.