How Much Religion Can Legally Be in Gov't?

A frieze depicting Moses holding two tablets with the Ten Commandments is fixed high above the justices' bench at the Supreme Court, one of several places the biblical law is represented in the marbled building.

But those same justices this week rejected a request to allow a 5,300-pound granite marker with the Ten Commandments carved into it to stay in Alabama's Judicial Building.

It's another illustration of the seemingly conflicting messages about how much religion can legally be in government.

God is in the details -- even the grand designs -- of the republic. Some of the expressions of religion are widely accepted as part of American traditions -- a kind of cultural deity -- like a president taking office with the oath, "So help me God."

Others -- school prayer, religious icons in town squares, President Bush's turn to religious charities for social services -- bring on pitched legal battles or at least a feisty debate over the separation of church and state (search).

Members of Congress who engage in that debate do so after a prayerful beginning to their day. A recent invocation in the Senate included this request, "Fill our God-shaped void with Your presence and bid our striving to cease."

On the same day in the House, members bowed their heads to the plea that "You, Lord, will lead, guide and direct them in their affairs."

Americans pledge allegiance to "one nation under God." U.S. currency says "In God We Trust."

Around the country, state courthouses are decorated with religious art -- although nothing quite like the monument that made its debut in Alabama about two years ago and reignited the debate over how God can be represented in public places.

Alabama's associate Supreme Court justices ordered the Ten Commandments monument removed Thursday, despite Chief Justice Roy Moore's fiery defense of the marker.

The chief justice had appealed to the Supreme Court for an emergency stay of the removal order, but the court rejected it. Moore has said he would file a formal appeal with the high court.

The frieze at the high court, which starts off each session with, "God save the United States and this honorable court," is a long-established part of its history. Moses (search) is shown alongside others, the Islamic prophet Muhammad (search) and Chinese lawgiver Confucius (search) among them, in friezes that line the courtroom's ceiling.

Moses is shown holding two tablets, written in Hebrew, with the sixth through 10th commandments partially visible. As well, a depiction of the commandments appears on the courtroom doors from the central hallway, appearing as tablets marked with the Roman numerals for one through 10.

And a frieze over the east entrance of the building features Moses holding blank tablets, flanked by Confucius and the ancient Greek legislator Solon.

They are but one example of the frequent allowances for references to God in older symbols of the nation, especially when those symbols are diverse, and stand in contrast to the Alabama monument, a prominent new addition containing words of the commandments.

While God is in many places, in courtrooms it's a very delicate matter, says John Langan, professor of ethics at Georgetown University.

"People feel very vulnerable there," he said. "They need reassurance they won't be discriminated against and that their values will be taken seriously."

But Langan says people don't consider religious words or signs on currency a real threat.

"You buy the same things with the money whether it has the same message or not," Langan says. "You don't have to worry about it. No one is going to ask you if you're Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. They'll just take the money."

Even so, religious references on money are rare outside of fundamentalist Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia, which says on one of its bills: "There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet."

America's Declaration of Independence in 1776 presupposed that people believed in a divinity. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ... ."

But the Constitution that followed, in guaranteeing the free exercise of religion, says little about God. Its only reference to a higher power was a much-used expression. "Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven."

how much religion can legally be in government.

To the secular elitist social engineers bent on controlling everything, they treat religion in general & Christianity specifically like it's salt & pepper & too much of it will ruin their pagan diet.

"How much religion..." What? You can now measure it like it's an ingredient in a recipe? Box it up? Compartmentalize it? Make sure it's disseminated only in certain allowed dosages?

... can legally be in government

What an outrageous editorial phrase in a so-called "news" piece! What? The liberal elite has placed a quota cap on religious folks & religious symbology in the public square and no one even notices or is provoked by such engineering language?

How insulting! Sorry religious control freaks. We don't check our faith at any arbitrary social door you're setting up.

It will take many generations to return to sanity. Or the "Balkanization" of the US will continue to it's footnote in history as all the other great empires and civilizations have.

English language must be mandatory - PC must die - our borders protected - and repatriation of Illegals a first priority.

We must vote those in with similar values.

Will it happen?

It will not happen in my lifetime - so I'm bailing - a small Island in the Pacific (paradise) and a comfortable estate in Poland. I will hip-hop between them as weather dictates.

A millionare? Nope - Just making it so.

The deeper you study early American history the more you can see that faith in God played a major role in the formation and workings of our government. From the First Continental Congress calling for a National Day of Prayer, to the Ten Commandments being placed in Federal, State, and Municipal buildings, to the earliest public school books containing Biblical stories, to the public speeches of the politicians who often quoted Scripture, to the use of the capital "C" in the world "Creator" in the Declaration and Constitution. The deeper you look into early American history and civilization, the more you see the fingerprints of God everywhere in government, and the faith of Christianity everywhere, period. There is nothing in our Constitution that drives religion out of all public places. This is a myth that has been perpetrated on the American people. I dabble in antiquarian books, and I can say with all truth and honesty that it is difficult to find early American books, (school books, history books, political publications, early American magazines and publications) that don't have constant references to God and Christianity in them. Religion and/or references to Christ manifested itself in every area of American life, culture, politics and education. History becomes for us whatever the books we read tell us it was, and modern America has been thoroughly duped by the revisionist 'historians'.

The original English Common Law was considered "once given and immutable." It was not "given" by man, but by God. All English common law is a record of precident as to how that original law was applied to specific cases. When the King gave law, it was said to be to clarify the original law, not make new law. We are said to be a nation goverened by Law, not men.

The organic law forms our sense of individual right and the rules that govern behavior and relationships.

The centuries of stare decisis (standing precident) are the backbone of principle and continuity in the law. In effect, its side boards act like an underlying foundational constitution.

The elements of English Common law are fundamental to American Constitutional law. Should we sever from an anchor in the natural and decreed Laws of God, we set ourselves adrift in a sea of statutory whim and relativity.

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Many of us know about the words "endowed by their Creator," but did you know there was an introductory paragraph in the Declaration of Independance, and it mentions GOD outright? (see transcript below)

The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/declaration/declaration_transcription.html

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IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,.....

so I'm bailing - a small Island in the Pacific (paradise) and a comfortable estate in Poland. I will hip-hop between them as weather dictates.
A millionare? Nope - Just making it so.

I can understand why you're bailing....If the US is no longer sovereign or under the Constitution, then why bother staying. My studies of int'l courts (there are many, and the US is an active part of them), and my studies of the recent tramplings/departure from the Constitution, both lead me to believe that this is not the US our parents lived under.

For instance, in my state there will be random car checkpoints to check for dui's. But those are illegal under the Constitution. You can't pull people over w/out just cause and ask them for id's -- "your papers please" -- sound familiar? Then there's the Patriot Act's sneak-n-peak searches, and the PA "Ethnic Intimidation" bill 1493 which outlaws parts of the Bible (any thing which may offend a homosexual can be considered intimidating, thus illegal), and the list goes on.

It's another illustration of the seemingly conflicting messages about how much religion can legally be in government.

One could say the Dred Scott decision sends us conflicting messages about how much slavery can legally be in the US.

The fact is that due to earlier blurring of the seperation of church and state, some religious icons have been included in now historic buildings and monuments. By today's standards on the question (like today's standards on slavery) these would be out of place and would not be allowed to be included. Strictly on historical preservation grounds are existing depictions allowed to remain, as long as they are obviously there ONLY for historic reasons and not for advocacy reasons.

Judge Moore's attempt at advocacy is obvious and has been rightly rejected. His monument was brand-spanking new. Nobody but nobody is going to get religious icons included in government advocacy displays. That era ended, and rightfully so. The US was established as a secular government religiously neuteral. It says so right in the Constitution.

Moore and everyone else will always be free to practice his religion in the US -- but on private property -- not at the expense of or forced down the throats of taxpayers of other religions.

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