Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Technogeeb
"Sorry, but you are mistaken. In the last century alone, more people died because of socialism (national and international) than have ever been killed by religion."

I disagree, in all of history most reasons one group attacks another is because one group doesn't believe in the same religion as the other, so they see them as a threat to them and their God. True Stalin a Socialist is responsible for 20 million deaths, but most those deaths were not do to promoting socialism, but Stalin's paraniod delusions and intolarence of anyone who didn't see things his way. All the deaths attributed to Hitler could be argued that they are religiously motivated, the Jews, the Gipsies (pagans). But, if you go back through history most conflicts are over religious deferences. What the total number killed throughout history no one really knows, how many were killed in the Crusades,how many christians killed at the hands of Rome, Religious motivations in history is as simple as one group believing they have some devine right, given to them by their God, over another. You have to look at the whole picture why does one group wish to eleminate another in history in most cases it boils down to religious motivation or intolarence of others that don't believe.
973 posted on 08/22/2003 10:48:31 AM PDT by commonerX
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 949 | View Replies ]


To: commonerX
If you define Communism, Socialism, Nazism, etc. as 'religions', you've more of less expanded the term religion to meaninglessness, to 'any set of beliefs'.
Thus "most wars are wars over religious differences" are "wars over differences in beliefs" well - duh - and yet Attila the Hun and Ghengis Khan didnt terrorize and kill for ideas, they did it for - POWER.

Almost all wars are and were about POWER.

The point is that secular belief systems and ideologies of Communism, Socialism, Fascism, and the many modern "isms" are far more bloody than traditional religions. The other point is that in ALL cases, they rejected the limits of traditional morality and the view of traditional religions that put man as a repsonsible and unique individual created by God. The main crime of the "isms" is rooted in their REJECTION of the individual and making man subservient to the State. NO traditional religion does this in the manner that Fascism and Communism do. It's the result of that belief that created the bloodiness of Collectivist ideology.

We've fought wars against colllectivism because we was the POWER to reside in the individual, in democratic rule, and not in a collectivist dictatorship.

As for blaming religions, that's just ignorant prejudice against the old:
Only Islam comes close historically in terms of bloodiness (eg India, Persia, Balkans, etc.) but that is over centuries, and is a consequence of Islam's use of the "Jihad" concept. Yet Islam, unlike he modern "isms" had times of great toleration and advance. Islam is not today and has rarely been as oppressive and cruel as say Maoist Communism.

And trash the flaws of Christian rule, but it gave rise to Western civilization, science, philosophy and all our modern way of life. Only Christian cultures were able to advance as much because of the foundations of Greek philosophy and Christian faith.

You can even go back to the French revolution to see the roots of modern blooody-mindedness. The Guillotine was the first Enforcer of Modern Political Correctness.


990 posted on 08/22/2003 11:23:36 AM PDT by WOSG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 973 | View Replies ]

To: commonerX
I disagree, in all of history most reasons one group attacks another is because one group doesn't believe in the same religion as the other, so they see them as a threat to them and their God

It doesn't matter if you disagree or not, your last statement (that "Religions have been the cause of more deaths and wars then any other cause in history" ) was still incorrect. Your current statement above is equally incorrect. A lot of historical conflicts have been over ideological differences, but socialism (in fact, even just counting atheistic socialism) has killed more people that all the religious conflicts put together.

True Stalin a Socialist is responsible for 20 million deaths, but most those deaths were not do to promoting socialism, but Stalin's paraniod delusions and intolarence of anyone who didn't see things his way

Even if the bogus argument above did excuse national socialism (or perhaps more properly statism) as the root cause, it would still be irrelevant. Stalin's 20 million is exceeded by Communist China's 50 million, and there's no (rational at least) arguing that anything other than socialism resulted in those deaths.

All the deaths attributed to Hitler could be argued that they are religiously motivated, the Jews, the Gipsies (pagans)

Again, even if one were to accept such a nonsensical argument and those numbers were counted as religious prosecution, the fact would still remain that socialism killed more.

But, if you go back through history most conflicts are over religious deferences.

That's simply not true. Your subconscious hatred of religion is blinding you to simple truth. Even if you count every conflict even loosly related to religion (Spanish conquistadors, every Arab conflict, etc.) those numbers still pale in comparison to conflicts over resources, trade, politics, non-religious social ideologies, etc.).

What the total number killed throughout history no one really knows

This is irrelevant; the numbers for death by socialism are simply too high. We could even make the nonsensical assumption that EVERYONE before recorded history died because of religion, and the numbers would still be less, because of the much lower population density at that time.

how many were killed in the Crusades

Slightly less than 200,000, if you include those sold into slavery by the Mohameddans.

how many christians killed at the hands of Rome

About 20,000.

Religious motivations in history is as simple as one group believing they have some devine right, given to them by their God, over another

This is irrelevant to the fact that your statement is historically incorrect.

You have to look at the whole picture why does one group wish to eleminate another in history in most cases it boils down to religious motivation or intolarence of others that don't believe

This too is irrelevant to the fact that your statements about "death by religion" are historically incorrect. I am not arguing the merits of your opinion that religion has caused conflicts; I am merely pointing out that you are mistaken in your belief that religion has been the cause of more deaths than any other. It is simply not true.

1,068 posted on 08/22/2003 1:10:04 PM PDT by Technogeeb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 973 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson