Mess Facts Needed

9/19/03 | SELF

[Robe]

I just delivered my son to the Citadel in Charleston SC this weekend, and as a Knob , during dining (MESS)....he's challenged by the upperclassmen to provide totally useless but interesting facts.

[RinaseaofDs]

Enlist and find out (heh, heh.)

The point of being asked questions about stuff you don't know is that with enough intelligence (research your enemy) you can anticipate what they will likely ask. In the future, the hope is avoiding the state of being caught ignorant, or caught unaware.

Even if you are not expected to know, you will hopefully be upbraided for not knowing the answer, and forced to do pushups, sit on the green bench (back up against the wall in a sitting position with no bench underneath you), or something equally as painful. Ignorance, like stupidity, should hurt. Avoiding pain is a fundamental concept to discipline.

[Cit72]

You have been there . . .

[brooklin]

MY dad didn't go to college, but he was D-Day plus 14. He was a great Dad, and I have to get to Normandy around June 21st one of these years. He said it was still a mess, but most of the bodies were picked up.

[Cit72]

I am sure that you would enjoy the trip and he would be honored that you did so. To me, the best parts of "Saving Private Ryan" are the opening and closing scenes with the old vet and his family.

[billhilly]

Chesty. "Retreat hell, we're just advancing backwards."

BTW, my closest neighbor is a Citadel grad, but he is in his seventies now, and I am not far behind at almost 66.

[RinaseaofDs]

Not there, but another of the federally funded charm schools.

Every year I thank God I went to a military academy.

[billhilly]

An interesting fact with regard to the Citadel. General William C. Westmoreland, former Army Chief of Staff, and famous commander in Vietnam attended his plebe year at the Citadel because his grandfather did not want him going to a "yankee" academy. One year later, the generals father, and he, convinced his grandfather that other famous southern generals had attended West Point, so his grandad relented. The result was a second plebe year at the United States Military Academy at West Point.

[Cit72]

I know what you mean . . .

[AnAmericanMother]

By all means go. Dad and mom went back to Italy and the Greek islands last year for a "victory tour". They had a wonderful time, all my dad's Italian came rushing back in a lump, everybody was glad to see them, and they enjoyed themselves everywhere they went. Rented a car, stayed in little tiny bed-and-breakfasts, and just wandered over the countryside trying to recognize all the places he fought.

Funny thing: the tumble-down old barracks at Marina de Pisa that dad stayed in were still there (and not MUCH more tumble-down than they were before), but the enormous concrete German pillbox on the beach that dad and his unit attempted to blow up by stuffing it full of anti-tank mines (and managed only to cover with soot) had totally vanished. There was a bar standing there instead, so they went in and had a drink. :-D

[AnAmericanMother]

Oooweee! sounds like my great-aunt Quenelle. There was only one "War" for her, and it wasn't in this century - or the last. She was very suspicious when I went "north" to school - but seemed satisfied with my explanation that it wasn't that far north and that lots of Southerners (particularly Virginians) had attended the College of New Jersey. :-D

[Old Professer]

Well, at least one's writing is improved by rigorous schooling.

[patton]

I hope you know what that "charm school education" was worth. More than once in my career, I have shot myself in the foot for the lack of that education.

Oh, I have lots of degrees - but I started out as a Private, and am still learning to fight like an officer.

[patton]

What is Building #1 on any army base?

The flagpole in front of headquarters.

(Headquarters is universally Building #2)

What is a truck?

The ball on top of the flag pole.

What's in it?

A book of matches and a bullett.

Why?

To burn the flag to prevent capture - and to defend it.

[billhilly]

It seems that we are probably around the same age. Your great aunt would have been fun to swing and shell peas with. My dear aunt Nell kept me happy through all of my visits with her, no matter what. From my earliest memories until her death she was a rock in my life.

[frmrda]

In response to all of you:

I have visited the Citadel and been mighty impressed w/ their honoring of tradition and valor. I certainly would rather hire a grad from there who has been through the type of experiences they have, especially over some Ivy Leaguer (most I've met, hired and been on the other side of are the "A" in School, "F" in life types)

Also, I honor any person, be it a service academy grad, Citadel grad, or some kid out of high school who decides to join the service, be in through enlisting, ROTC or whatever.They are far braver than I ever was or will be.

My only point is that the Citadel (or any other non-service academy) is in reality, nothing more than any other 4 year school. Most places, even the PC Ivy League schools have ROTC.

I think what sets the service academies apart from places like the Citadel, VMI, etc., is that they only take the cream of the crop (even more selective than the Ivy's). As far as I know, the Citadel/VMI don't require you to pass physical tests, or got through the Congressional appointment process.

However, I don't think you can even put the Citadel, or 99% of the other colleges out there in the same class as the service academies. For example, the average SAT score to get into USMA is 300 points higher than the Citadel, and that doesn't take into account all the other stuff.

The main thing that sets the service academies apart for me is the fact that unlike any other place, you don't have the option of going on Wall Street or into the private sector upon graduation. You know that you will be in the military and possibly in harm's way. At the Citadel you can CHOOSE to pursue a military career (as you can at any place ROTC is available - and God Bless those folks) whereas at the service academies you don't have that choice. To me that is the difference between the service academies and any other place like the Citadel.

I've met alot of graduates from those places and I've never sensed an arrogance. The Citadel response only came up after I had visited there and asked them about it. Their basic attitude came from the fact that, in their mind, anyone w/ a big checkbook could get into the Citadel, and to go to an academy you had to be chosen. They were also a bit upset at those people who graduated from there and claimed to have gone to a military academy. To them, unless you take the oath on Day 1, or have gone through "Beast", you have not attended a "military academy" . To them the whole Citadel/VMI thing is like being a toy soldier or as they say "playing Army".

I do like the line about "High School on the Hudson". I'll pass that on to my bro-in-law. I had a Yale grad working for me once and told him that where I went to schoolwe had a name for Yale - a "safe school".

[AnAmericanMother]

They were also a bit upset at those people who graduated from there and claimed to have gone to a military academy. To them, unless you take the oath on Day 1, or have gone through "Beast", you have not attended a "military academy" . To them the whole Citadel/VMI thing is like being a toy soldier or as they say "playing Army".

Sounds like typical West Pointers -- they're also just playing Army til they get their commission, but it usually takes them til their butterbar (or even later) to realize that fact. My dad and my father in law were both OCS, and they were better officers than any Military Academy grad I ever met. (My husband was ROTC from a state school.)

Also, as I said, when I competed against them in college they played dirty. Without getting too technical, they told off a rider in every class to interfere with riders from other schools. They also brought a half-broken horse to one show (you draw your horse out of a hat) that bucked off three people and injured one pretty badly (concussion and a broken arm). I drew that horse for one of my classes, but I was breaking colts when those cadets were trying to figure out how to get the training wheels off their bikes, so she did not get the better of me. But I didn't like their attitude much.

[packrat35]

The first B-17 to offically fly 25 missions in WWII and get rotated home was "The Memphis Belle"

[frmrda]

Don't know about your situation, but they gave me this opinion after they had graduated, it never really came up while they were going there. One of my bro in laws best friends is a Navy pilot who went to Annapolis and he had the same opinion. Both are now in Iraq, along w/ ROTC grads, enlistees and Citadel grads. We owe a big thanks to each and every one of them.

[Howlin]

Cool site!

[AnAmericanMother]

My maternal grandmother's name was Nell, also.

Great aunt Quenelle was named after my gg grandmother, whose real name was Martha Jane but everybody called her "Queen". She was a remarkable and redoubtable person, I never met her but the family was full of stories about her. Great aunt Quenelle was also delightful - she kept us children in raptures with stories about her grandfathers who fought in the War, and real ghost stories (she had a secretary/bookcase that was haunted by the ghost of her grandfather, and she was visited by the ghost of Queen after her death) and homemade cookies.

Southern ladies are unique, no doubt about it.