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What teaching authority exists in any church if it cannot trace its origins back to St. Peter and the Apostles?

If a church was founded last week (there are an estimated 30,000 Christian church sects worldwide), how can it claim to have any teaching authority? Where is the link to the original bishops of the church, the Apostles, who received their authority from Christ Himself, who passed their authority on to successors with sacramentally binding ordination?

That church is the one Christ founded, not the one Calvin founded, not the one Luther founded, not the one John Wesley founded, not the one Henry VIII and Elizabeth I founded. It is the Roman Catholic Church. In time, when all others have fallen away, one will remain teaching what Christ taught, and that is because even the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

What about the Orthodox Church(es)? I'm Roman Catholic and am confused about whether my church or the Orthodox is the "real" one. The Vatican has said Catholics may recieve Communion in Orthodox chruches, so the official Catholic teaching must be that the Orthodox Chruch is the "real" one, or almost the "real" one.

Please advise.

My church traces its origins directly to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. My Church is founded squarely upon the Word of God. Jesus Christ founded my Church. Yours, too.

A Mighty Fortress Is Our BUMP.

With current leadership in the catholic church I would put down the stones and put your own house in order.

**********The Eastern Orthodox Church CAN trace it's origins to the Apostles, as well. So, can the Coptics and the Armenians.

Those Churches have married Priests and do NOT allow homosexuals to be priests... celibate or not.

As far as blessing "gay" marriage( copulations).... FORGET IT.... that will not happen in an Orthodox Christian Church and any person who suggests it will find themselves in SEARCH OF A NEW CHURCH HOME.

That is the one thing I like about the Orthodox.... they just will not give in to the demands of the world..... over 1 million Orthodox Clergy died at the hands of the commies.... in gulags all over Russia. It is estimated that 65 million members of the Church died as victims of communism just because they would not take down an Icon or denounce Christ.

I know Roman Catholics died at commie hands, but I believe.... not as many as the Orthodox Christians. Nevertheless, the commies were horrid to ALL Chritians. JUST HORRID!!

Now, I understand the Russian Church cannot open ther seminaries fast enough and have thousands of Priests in training.

Europe needs a CHRISTIAN revival. The Pope needs to start to build his R.C. flock again. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!! R.C. Priests in France and Spain allow muslims to use their R.C. Churches as places to hold services.

I find that to be a terrible capitulation to islam. ********

"...That church is the one Christ founded, not the one Calvin founded, not the one Luther founded ..." ~ TheGeezer

You're exactly right.

They were merely the ones who REFORMED it back to its origional purity.

Here's a little trip back memory lane where what's called "Calvinism" today was merely called "Biblical Christianity" long before Calvin or Luther were ever born.

Church Father quotes begin:

"Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt [Barnabas, the associate of Paul in A.D. 70]

They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual...Nor can unbeliever do the things of belief.[The celebrated Church Father Ignatius in A.D. 110]

Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners...No good thing dwells in us...For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for men to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit...Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God...He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life...Free-will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold...Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]

The soul cannot rise of fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace. [Clement of Alexandrea in A.D. 190]

The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed. [Eusebius (an orthodox church historian) in A.D. 330]

If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will? ...

O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power...Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ...

What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us...

Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God's; how they can find it, I know not. [St. Augustine A.D. 370]

Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect protion of Himself...Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness...There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord...Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect... [Clement of Rome A.D. 69 (Clement who was referenced in Phil. 4:3)]

Creator, guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of Thine elect throughout the whole world, through Your beloved Son Jesus Christ...For You chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and You chose us through Him for a peculiar people. [Prayer of Clement of Rome]

God, out of all nations, took your nation to Himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing toward those that are chosen out of every nation to obey His will, by Christ, whom also He calls Jacob, and names Israel. [Clement of Rome to Trypho the Jew]

To the predestined ones before all ages, that is before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father... [Salutation of Ignatious in a letter to the Ephesians (the same local church to whom Paul sent his inspired epistle) A.D. 110]

It behooveth us to be very scrupulous and to assign to God the power over all things...The multitued marveled that there should be so great a difference between the unbelievers and the elect...The Lord maketh election from His own servants....Glory be unto God for the salvation of His holy elect. [Letter from the church of Smyrna (Rev 1:11; 2:8) circulated to the other churches reminding them of their commitment to the gospel. A.D. 157]

In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation. [Justin Martyr to Trypho the Jew (2nd Century)]

Whatsoever we [pagans] ascribe to fate, so you to God; and so men desire your sect not of their own free will, but as elect of God; wherefore you suppose an unjust judge, who punishes in men lot or fortune, and not on the basis of their will. [Coecilius (a heathan) in a charge on the teaching of election to Octavius (a Christian). One would expect a heathan to misunderstand the church's teachings of election (1 Cor 1,2). (unfortunately there is no record of Octavius' reply)]

God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life...Being predestinded indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever.
[Iranaeus, the desciple of the martyr Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John (A.D. 198)]

Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not the place but the congreagation of the elect, which I call the Chruch...If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election...You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood. [Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 190]

We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation. [Barnabus in A.D. 70]

This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]

In predestination the Church of God has always existed.
[Ambrose of Milan in A.D. 380]

Here cetainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, 'You did not choose Me, bu I chose you' (John 15:16)
[St. Augustine in A.D. 380]

[Christ speaking] I see that I shall thus offer My flesh for the sins of the new people. [Barnabas in A.D.]

He endured the suffereings for those men whose souls are purified from all iniquitey...As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]

Christ suffered for the salvation of the whole world of them that are saved. [Church of Smyrna in A.D. 169]

He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men...Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary...promising to give His life a ransom in the roof of, many. [Irenaeus in A.D. 180 on 1 Timothy 2:6]

Christ died for the salvation of His people...for the church. [Tertullian in A.D. 200]

All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved...Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape...he redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood...Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]

He was to suffer and be slain for the salvation of many people...who having suffered death for us, hath made us heirs of the everlasting kingdom, having abdicated and disinherited the people of the Jews...He stretched out His hands in His passion and measured the world, that he might at that very time show that a large people, gathered out of all languages and tribes, should come under His wings, and receive the most great and sublime sign. [Lactantius in A.D. 320]

To what "us" does refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ's coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him. [Eusebius in A.D. 330]

The Son of God, by the pouring out of His precious blood, redeemed His set apart ones; they are delivered by the blood of Christ. [Julius in A.D. 350]

He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father. [Hilarius in A.D. 363]

Before the foundation of the world, it was God's will that Chirst should suffer for our salvation. [St. Ambrose in A.D. 380]

Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price. [Pacianus in A.D. 380]

Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death? [St. Ambrose in A.D. 380]

If you are redeemed...If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou art not of the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood...He gave His life for His own sheep. [Epiphanius on those who rejected the gospel in A.D. 390]

Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers...Not allare redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant...All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou has prepared for Thyself by Thine own blod...Christ came to redeem Zion with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Chruch...He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe. [Hieronymus in A.d. 390]

Since only the elect are saved, it may be accepted that Christ did not come to save all and did not die on the cross or all. [Remigius in A.D. 850]

Pray for them, if so be they may repent, which is very difficult; but Jesus Christ, our true life, has the power of this. [Ignatius in A.D. 110]

Having sometime before convinced us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior who is able to save them which otherwise were impossible to be saved...Free will has detroyed us, we are sold into sin. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]

God gives repentance to us, introducing us into the incorruptible temple. [Barnabus in A.d. 70]

Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation...Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of the possessor, according to the mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word; that is, by Christ; that man may experimentally learn that not of himself, but by the gift of God, he receives immortality. [Irenaeus in A.d. 180]

Do you think, O men, that we could ever have been able to have understood these things in the Scriptures unless by the will of Him that wills all things, we had received grace to understand them?...But by this it is plain, that it (faith) is not given to thee by God because thou dost not ascribe it to Him alone. [Tertullian in A.D. 200]

Whatsoever is grateful is to be ascribed not to man's power, but to God's gift. it is God's, I say, all is God's that we can do. Yea, that in nothing must we glory, since nothing is ours. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]

You place the salvation of your souls in yourselves, and trust that you may be made gods by your inward endeavor, yet it is not in our own power to reach things above. [Arnobius addressing the heathen in A.d. 303]

the victory lies in the will of God, not in thine own. to overcome is not in our own power. [Lactantius in A.d. 320]

To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirit's who is in us, and abides in us. [Athanasius (who bears the name of the foundational Athanasian Creed) in A.d. 350]

To will is from God [Gregory of Nazianzum in A.D. 370]

This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he canhave, is not his own, but the Lord's who gives it...See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us...When He(Jesus) says, "no man can come to Me," He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors...Where is the proud boasting of free will?...We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will? [Hieronymus in A.D. 390]

Faith itself is to be attributed to God...Faith is made a gift. These men, however, attribute faith to free will, so grace is rendered to faith not as a gratuituous gift, but as a debt...They must cease from saying this. [St. Augustine in A.D. 370]

It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. he has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His? [Clement of Rome in A.D. 69]

Such a sould (of a Christian) shall never at any time be separated from God...Faith, I say, is something divine, which cannot be pulled asunder by any other worldly friendship, nor be dissolved by present fear. [Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 190]

God forbid that we should believe that the soul of any saint should be drawn out by the devil....For what is of God is never extinguished. [Tertullian]

Of these believers no one perishes, because they all were elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose-the purpose, however, not their own, but God's...Obedience then is God's gift...To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverence in good, progressing even to the end. is also a great gift of God. [St. Augustine]

If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, 'I was found by them that did not seek Me; I appeared openly to them that asked not after Me.'

If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he opposeth the Holy Spirit Himself who says through Solomon, 'the will is prepared by the Lord.'

If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe-if anyone says that this belongs to us naturally and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles...For those who state that faith by which we believe in God is our own make all who are separated from the Church of Christ in some measure believers.

If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from His gift, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, etc., but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we even have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things we ought, he contradicts the Apostles...If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our own powers...he is led away by a heretical spirit...If anyone maintains that he comes through free will, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. Council of Orange (A.D. 529)

We confess a predestination of the elect to life, and a predestination of the wicked to death; that, in the election of those who are saved, the mercy of God precedes anything we do, and in the condemnation of those who will perish, evil merit precedes the righteous judgment of God. Council of Valence (A.D. 855)

If you die in unbelief, Christ did not die for you.
[Anselm 11th Century]

A man without the Spirit of God does not do evil against his will, under pressure, as though he were taken by the scruff of the neck and dragged into it; no, he does it spontaneously and voluntarily...

On the other hand, when God works in us, the will is changed under the sweet influence of the Spirit of God...With regard to God and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, man has not 'free-will,' but is a captive, prisoner and bondslave... [Martin Luther in A.D. 1530]

We become sons of God by a power divinely given us-not by any power of 'free-will' inherent in us!...What is hereby attributed to man's own decision and free-will? What indeed is left but nothing! In truth, nothing! Since the source of grace is the predestinating purpose of God, then it comes bynecessity, and not by any effort of endeavor on our part. [Martin Luther]

For in an absolute sense, Christ did not die for everyone, because he says: "this is My blood which is poured out on you" and "for many" -He does not say: for every person -"for the forgiveness of sins." As the Apostle says, "Everything for the sake of the elect". [Martin Luther]

There are two causes which require such things to be preached. The first is the humbling of our pride and knowledge of the grace of God. The second is, the future of the Christian faith itself. [Martin Luther]

Although this matter is very hard for the "prudence of the flesh", which is made even more indignant by it and brought even to the point of blasphemy, because here it is strangled to death and reduced to absolutely nothing, man understands that salvation comes in no way from something working in himself, but only from outside himself, namely, from God, who elects. But those who have the "prudence of the Spirit" delight in this subject with ineffable pleasure. [Martin Luther]

Many have acertain imagination of faith. They think no farther than that faith is a thing which is in their power to have, as do other natural works which men do...But the right faith springeth not of man's fantasy, neither is it in any man's power to obtain it, even faith is God's gift and grace...Faith rooteth herself in the hearts of the elect.

Is it not...perverse blindness to teach how a man can do nothing of his own self, and yet presumptuously take upon them the greatest and highest work of God, even to make faith in themselves of their own power, and of their own false imagination and thoughts?

Therefore, I say, we must despair of ourselves and pray to God to give us faith. [William Tyndale in A.D. 1520]

Christ's blood only putteth away the sins of them that are elect...We are elect through Christ's blood...Thou are elect to everlasting by Christ's blod, whose gift and purchase is thy faith. [William Tyndale]

Now may not we ask why God chooseth one and not another; for God hath power over all of His creatures to do as He pleaseth [William Tyndale -16th century]

Christ is in thee, and thou in Him, knit together inseparably. Neither canst thou be damned, except Christ be damned with thee: neither can Christ be saved, except thou be saved with Him. [William Tyndale}

From my childhood up, my mind had been full of objections to the doctrine of God's sovereignty, in choosing who He would to eternal life; and rejecting whom He pleased...But I have often, since that first conviction, had quite another kind of sense of God's sovereignty than I had then. I have often since had not only a conviction, but a delightful conviction. The doctrine has very often appeared exceedingly bright and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God...And wherever the doctrines of God's sovereignty with regard to the salvation of sinners were preached, there with it God sent revival. [Johathan Edwards]

*

When one studies the history of New Testament "church government", one can readily see that the bottom-up, checks and balances, Republican form of limited government that America's Calvinist Framers gave us, is based straight out of the New Testament CHURCH GOVERNMENT example. [Acts 6:3; 1:15, 22, 23, 25; 2Cor.8:19, etc.] And Paul, Barnabus and Titus are shown as installing the elders that were chosen by the congregations [Acts 6:3-6; 14:23 and Titus 1:5].

Paul says to the whole church congregation: "Pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom whom we may appoint to this duty." (of servant aka deacon)

The apostles had the *unique authority* to found and govern the early church, and they could speak and write the words of God. Many of their written words became the NT Scripture.

In order to qualify as an apostle someone had to had seen Christ with his own eyes after he rose from the dead **and** had to have been specifically installed/appointed by Christ as an apostle.

In place of living apostles present in the church to teach and govern it, we have instead the writings of the apostles in the books of the NT.

Those New Testament Scriptures fulfill for the church today the absolute authoritative teaching and governing functions which were fulfilled by the apostles themselves during the early years of the church.

Because of that, there is no need for any direct "succession" or "physical descent" from the apostles.

Oh please...more Catholic chauvanism. You guys while having ostensibly wonderful doctrine in theory are up to your ass in problematic alligators in reality.

From liberationist/marxist theologians to a huge number of homosexual and predatory clergy and so forth, I think it would behoove you to worry about cleaning up your own problems right now.

I wish you luck but I have yet to see any high ranking Catholic clergy even admit that you have homosexuals to the degree that you do within your own ranks. Some folks even surmise they may constitute a majority in the US clergy body.

I have nothing against Catholicism and have Catholic family members but your problems are just as grave.

If a church was founded last week (there are an estimated 30,000 Christian church sects worldwide), how can it claim to have any teaching authority? Where is the link to the original bishops of the church, the Apostles, who received their authority from Christ Himself, who passed their authority on to successors with sacramentally binding ordination?

Uh, the Bible?

If you believe that, then don't take too close a look at your own Church. I'm an ex-Catholic, a Lutheran now.

There is a lot of homosexuals who are priests. Many are celibate, but then all of them are supposed to be, aren't they?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see God's church used against Christians by Satan. I think that very thing is underway as we speak.

If a church was founded last week (there are an estimated 30,000 Christian church sects worldwide), how can it claim to have any teaching authority?

The promise of our Lord , that's where.

Where is the link to the original bishops of the church...who passed their authority on to successors with sacramentally binding ordination?

From whence did these "original bishops" derive the power to "pass on" the authority which rightly belongs to Christ Jesus?

And what evidence is there, assuming that such a power ever existed, that this transfer of power extends to the present crew of RC bishops?