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Adolescent Arguments in the Abortion Debate
Association for Interdisciplinary Research in Values and Social Change Vol. 17, No. 3 ^ | July/August 2002 | Wanda Franz, Ph.D.

Posted on 08/10/2003 11:36:00 PM PDT by miltonim

Adolescent Arguments in the Abortion Debate

Presented are ten strategies of argumentation that are characterized by their manipulative approach to debate. The purpose is to win the debate, not clarify the issues. The arguments must be won at any cost, even if it means switching the terms of the debate and engaging in inconsistent and incompatible arguments. These arguments can be very irrational and it is very irritating to debate with someone who doesn't mind being irrational. That is why such debates often deteriorate into emotional conflicts. This is, of course, counter productive to educating people about the abortion issue.

Dr Franz is a developmental psychologist and a professor in Family and Consumer Sciences at West Virginia University. She is president of the National Right to Life Committee and also president of the Association for Interdisciplinary Research in Values and Social Change. This paper was presented at the Annual Meeting and Paper Session of the Association in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, June 26, 2002.
Dr. Franz has frequently debated the issue of abortion. It has been her experience that debating with pro-abortion advocates often involves dealing with adolescent thinking.

It has long been known that adolescence is the time when mature cognitive and intellectual abilities are being acquired. This period of time is experienced by the adolescent as one of confusion and frustration as new abilities are made available but are not fully utilized or understood by the adolescent. This is a time when there is an awakening to the internal feelings, needs, emotional drives and intellectual skills which, up until adolescence, function primarily at an unconscious level. What happens to adolescents is that they suddenly become conscious of the functioning of these internal events.

In addition, new capabilities for intellectual activity are made available to the adolescent. Piaget (Piaget & Inhelder, 1958) refers to these new skills as Formal Operational abilities. In Piaget's theory, operations are internal strategies or constructs of knowledge that allow adolescents to engage in such mental activities as manipulating mental ideas, organizing concepts into hierarchies, creating complex associations of multiple variables, and using hypothetico-deductive reasoning. These operations are called "formal" because they are abstract, organized entities that can be manipulated using abstract reasoning. While these complex, mature abilities are available to the adolescent, it is clear from research into adolescent functioning that they are not used on a regular basis (Elkind, 1978; Franz, 1994; Quadrel, Fischoff & David, 1993).

There are a number of reasons why adolescents fail to make full use of these new intellectual skills. Elkind (1967) described a condition he called Adolescent Egocentrism, in which adolescents use these new abilities from their own limited perspective. For example, adolescents are powerfully aware of their own emotions, so they assume everyone else understands exactly what they are feeling, an example of what Elkind called "imaginary audience." In addition, they feel extraordinarily special so they have a sense of themselves as being above the usual problems that other people have. These things just won't happen to them, a condition Elkind called "personal fable."

Given these distortions in thinking, it is possible to understand why adolescents may fail to use their new intellectual abilities in the most rational way. For example, they may be capable of reasoning that drinking and then driving is dangerous; however, in any specific incident the adolescent may take the risk and drive, reasoning that an accident just "won't happen to me."

Recent research on brain functioning in adolescence has demonstrated that adolescents, unlike adults, frequently don't use the rational part of the brain in solving problems. The amygdala is the part of the brain that manages emotions. This part of the brain goes through a major maturation during early adolescence (Dahl, 2001). It appears that adolescents are prone to over-use this new ability in situations when the use of rational components of the frontal lobe would be more appropriate. In one study, Baird and colleagues (Baird, et al., 1999) found that, when given a problem-solving task, adolescents primarily used the amygdala to solve it, while adults primarily used the frontal lobe.

Another explanation for adolescent failure to use mature reasoning skills has been suggested by Mitchell (1998) in his analysis of Developmental Narcissism in adolescents. Narcissism in the adolescent is the tendency for excessive self-love that takes the form of a compulsive need to protect the self from outside assaults. The environmental assaults that concern the adolescent are those that threaten the newly developing emotional and psychological self identity. This form of narcissism includes tendencies to selfishness and extreme sensitivity to any correction along with an extraordinary need for acceptance.

Even very rational adults may revert to narcissistic patterns in making arguments favoring abortion.

Mitchell argues that there are five features of the Narcissistic Style, as it appears in adolescence. These are: an expectation of entitlements. deadness to the feelings of others, a reduced capacity to give love, a reduced moral circumference and reduced intellectual objectivity. It is the last feature that concerns us here: the tendency to allow the needs of the self to control rational functioning. Mitchell provides a list of some of the problems adolescents have in making rational arguments. It is clear from analyzing these strategies that the adolescent is using them to avoid the real argument in favor of protecting the vulnerable self.

Very often, these are the kinds of arguments that are being made by adults. especially in situations of self-protective need. We might expect to find such arguments in the abortion debate, where people are trying to justify a position in order to protect their own self-concept. No one wants to admit that they have been supporting the brutal killing of innocent children. Thus, even very rational adults may revert to using some of these narcissistic patterns of making arguments when the debate concerns abortion.

I have taken ten of the most important examples given by Mitchell (1998) and put them into the pro-life context. It is my assumption that arguing with pro-abortion advocates often involves dealing with adolescent thinking. It is always helpful to understand the strategies being used against pro-life efforts, in order to be able to respond more effectively.

These ten strategies of argumentation are characterized by their manipulative approach to debate. The purpose is to win the debate, not clarify the issues. The arguments must be won at any cost, even if it means switching the terms of the debate and engaging in inconsistent and incompatible arguments. These arguments can be very irrational and it is very irritating to debate with someone who doesn't mind being irrational. That is why such debates often deteriorate into emotional conflicts. This is, of course, counter productive to educating people about the abortion issue. Following are ten of the strategies, characterized by adolescent limitations.

One. Opposing a proposition by misrepresenting it.

This approach allows the argument to be cut to fit the purposes of the arguer. Forms of misrepresentation include disagreeing with something that doesn't exist, disagreeing with a small portion of an issue, and disagreeing with a highly simplified version of the issue. This approach is very common in the abortion debate. Our opponents began their campaign for deregulation with lies about the reality of abort.ion. For example, they claimed "Tens of thousands of women have back-alley abortions and die every year, so we have to legalize abortion so women won't have to go into back alleys to get them." This argument is full of misrepresentations, particularly the issue of the huge numbers of women who died from abortion before legalization. All of these numbers were inflated in order to create the appropriate shock value, which made people feel good about their pro-abortion position.

Another common misrepresentation is the one that says, "Pro-life people hate women." This argument allows the pro-abortion lobby to dislike pro-lifers for a position that they don't hold. Our opponents can easily go from there to disliking all of the other positions that pro-life people hold, both accurate and inaccurate.

Arguments, such as these, are best handled with short, direct statements that undermine the basic premises. For example, "If pro-life people dislike women so much, why are they the ones running the 3,000 crisis pregnancy centers around the country to help women with crisis pregnancies?"

Two. Use of prestige words.

In the abortion debate, the needs of the self may control rational functioning.

The assumption of this approach is that the prestige words are more powerful than ordinary words. Showmanship like this is intended to gain points for style and winning the argument is essentially the same as creating the most theatrical presentation. This is very common in the pro-abortion arguments. The term "fetus" is intended to divert attention from the fact that we are talking about a "child." The term "reproductive health care providers" is intended to mask the fact that we are talking about abortionists, because everyone understands that abortionists kill babies. In arguments of this sort, it is important to avoid being drawn into using the prestige words in order to get style points. It is important to immediately deflate pompous statements, for example, "We are talking about living, growing babies."

Three. Diverting to a side issue.

This tactic is, in reality, a desperate effort to direct the argument away from a debate that is being lost. It allows the arguer to put the debate into an arena that is safer. It generally opens up issues that are much too big to debate without directing the discussion away from the rational analysis of an issue. It is most effective when it also arouses emotional reactions in the other party, thus completely undermining the original debate. An effective diversion often used by our opponents is to accuse the pro-lifer of trying to "impose your religion on everyone." This can arouse an emotional discussion about religion and take the debate completely off the abortion issue.

It is important to avoid being drawn off-topic by this strategy. A quick shot to the heart of the issue can sometimes cause an opponent to change his mind about getting into the diversion because it isn't keeping the discussion off-topic. For example, "I'm the one talking about scientific, biological facts of conception and fetal development. You are the one who doesn't seem to know when life begins."

Four. Enhancing a position by claiming compromise.

This approach is intended to give the impression of fair play, which isn't fair at all. This has been a very effective tactic of our opponents and it has worked well because the media have picked it up and used it as a tactic, as well. This began with the false compromise proposed at the time of Roe vs. Wade and used ever since that, "Roe vs. Wade represents the compromise (or middle-ground) position." This allowed our opponents to argue, ever after that, from a centrist position, when, in fact, Roe vs. Wade was the most extreme possible position. However, the pro-life position was then put into the stance of being extremist. We have been fighting an up-hill battle ever since. This is because in our country being extreme is, in and of itself, a negative thing. It is very hard to move public opinion when you are arguing from what appears to be the extreme side of the debate.

In recent years, a new version of this approach has been introduced into the abortion debate. This claim to compromise was Clinton's brilliant statement that abortion should be "rare." This implied to people that he was compromising, that is arguing for controls over abortion, while at the same time allowing it for "difficult" cases. In fact, his actual position was for unfettered abortion on demand, which is the most extreme case. If people believe that Clinton took a position that was "moderate" then to oppose his position was to automatically make the pro-lifer an extremist.

When life begins is not a matter of belief, it is a statement of fact that modern science understands quite well.

Five. Arguing by forced analogy.

An analogy is drawing a link between things that are otherwise not similar. A forced analogy occurs when the inference is then made that, if two things are alike in some respects, they will be alike in others. There are a number of these kinds of false arguments that have come from pro-abortion positions. For example, "The egg and sperm (like the embryo) are also human life and they die by the millions, so why are you so concerned about the death of the embryo?" It is true that the egg and sperm, like the embryo, are living human tissue, but they are different in kind because the embryo is a unique, living human person. That is what makes this particular analogy false.

Another common forced analogy heard in pro-abortion arguments is, "The fetus is just a part of the woman's body." The analogy here is that the fetus is in the woman's body so it is a part of it, like her liver and kidneys. This argument completely misunderstands the amazing biological event of pregnancy and the fact that a completely separate human person can live temporarily in the body of the mother. These arguments are more diffficult to deflect because it is generally necessary to provide a great deal of education about human biology in order to prove the analogy false.

Six. Arguing by using a straw man

This is a tactic that can be very effective because the arguer sets up a false issue that can be easily knocked down in order to get an easy victory. Oftentimes these straw men have emotional or anxiety-provoking aspects that diffuse a logical approach to the argument. They are very useful in propaganda because they often appear to be logical when they are not. In the abortion debate, such arguments take the following form, "Unwanted children will be abused, so we have to have abortion available." "Women have to be able to pursue their careers, so they have to be able to get abortions." The straw men in these arguments are the false notions that unwanted children are abused and women can't pursue their careers if they are mothers. There is no evidence for either of these false arguments

It is difficult to deal with this type of deception because the average person doesn't have enough information about the issue to recognize a false straw man. It requires patient educational efforts to explain why these are not reasons for legalized abortion.

Seven. Using proof by selected incidences

In this approach, the arguer uses selective cases that are easier to justify than the true situation. For example, "Poor women get pregnant and it ruins their lives." The assumption here, of course, is that having an abortion would improve their lives. Since the appeal is to try to draw the argument into sympathetic consideration of poor people, it can sometimes help to appeal to this sympathy by attacking the assumption. For example, "There is no evidence that having abortions improves the condition of poor women. It doesn't make them rich. What kind of a choice is it if a woman who is poor feels like abortion is her only solution?"

Another version of this type of argument is to point to individuals as examples. For example, "I know someone who had an abortion and she's fine." This is a tricky argument to handle because the argument could end up revolving around the circumstances of a particular person. This, of course, can distract the arguer from the real point, which is abortion as a legal option. On the other hand, it can help to personalize the argument if it is handled well. For example, "No one knows what is inside a person. It isn't possible to know if she is fine. Post abortion trauma usually doesn't show up in a person's life until months or years after the abortion.

Eight. Making statements in which "all" is implied but "some" is true.

This is a common approach to making arguments because it puts out the position the arguer wants to make and forces the opponent to refute it. This is particularly difficult because the statements are generally proposed as assumptions that should not be questioned.

A common statement heard by pro-life people is the one: "Americans are pro-choice." Because it is presented as an assumption, this statement must be refuted with facts. That, of course, requires knowing the latest polling data. Of course, some Americans are pro-choice, but we need to correct this error every time we hear it.

Nine. Statements that imply that no other position is plausible.

These arguments are, of course, the most difficult because they come from a mind-set that has accepted abortion as a necessity. The person making such statements has probably never made any attempt to understand the reasons supporting the position that is held. The position is accepted unconditionally without giving it any real thought. A common example of such a position encountered by pro-life individuals is the notion that, "Everyone has the right to choose. It's American."

Pro-abortion opponents may manipulate the discussion, knowing full well that the positions taken are dangerous.

A statement like this is based on so many misconceptions that it is difficult to know where to start to refute it. It is clear that a great deal of education is prohably needed when this type of statement is made. The usual way to respond initially is to draw attention to the fact that "The baby doesn't get a choice" or "In America we usually don't give people the choice to kill other people." Responses like these can create a great deal of antagonism. The danger is that the person will be so annoyed that the emotions generated by the responses will cause the pro-life debater to lose the ability to continue a meaningfull dialogue.

Ten. Simply restating without defending the merit of the position.

As a dehating tactic, this is a very effective technique. It doesn't give the pro-life debater anything to refute. It eliminates opportunities to educate by responding to new comments made by the pro-abortion side. It puts the debater in the position of repeating the same argument in different ways to try to get the opponent to respond to the essence of the debate. This situation then eliminates the need for the pro-abortion opponent to have to respond to a number of different points.

A better tactic for the pro-life debater responding to this type of approach is to ignore the restatements and press on with pro-life education. This way the opponent is exposed to the various arguments that are being avoided by keeping the debate stuck on one topic.

These ten points are helpful because they provide a plan for dealing with opponents, whether the situation is an informal conversation or a formal debate format with an audience. When there is an audience, it is important to remember that education is occurring whether or not the opponent is being moved by the arguments. The audience must always be considered in such situations. Pro-abortion opponents, in such situations, may simply manipulate the discussion, knowing full well that the positions that are being taken are disingenuous.

I once had the experience of doing a radio interview for a program that had the format of using a "liberal" and a "conservative" interviewer. In this case, the conservative was pro-life and was very, helpful in supporting my point of view. The liberal was a very aggressive pro-abortion advocate. In the end, my debate was only with him. I had responded to all of his attempts to "back me into a corner." Finally he just said, "I don't believe that life begins at conception." The purpose of this statement, is, of course, to step out of the argument. He is essentially getting out of the way of the debate, side-stepping it.

He is saying that it is all a matter of belief and he just doesn't believe it. We are generally respectful of the beliefs of people and we generally realize that beliefs are basic assumptions that can't really be refuted by facts. I certainly think that there are many issues that are a matter of belief but when life begins is not one of them. It is a biological fact that modern science understands quite well. He obviously had had good success silencing his opponents with this technique in the past. Being a developmental psychologist, I decided to end that particular maneuver in the following way. I said, "I'm not surprised that you don't know when life begins. There is developmental research on this topic and many people don't know when life begins. For example, children don't know." I was going to explain the stages of development associated with a full understanding of when life begins, but he hung up on me before I could finish my sentence.

References



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: abortion; nrlc; prolife
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To: Big Giant Head
A "Does this sound familiar?" PING

Thought you'd appreciate the labeling of the "debate" tactics of the left :-)
141 posted on 08/24/2003 8:04:20 PM PDT by Marie Antoinette (Mmmmmm, Shiraz.....)
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To: XBob
I can think just fine, thank you.

First, I am not defining killing as the same as murder. Perhaps someone else did, but not I. I know the difference.

Killing an enemy in war on the battlefield when he is armed and intends to kill you if he can is not murder, it is self-defense.

The death penalty I agree is state-sanctioned murder. Executions are murder, absolutely.

Now, to the heart of the debate:

A person need not be born to be legally a person. If one were to cut an unborn child out of the belly of a mother, killing the child, but the mother lives, the child has been murdered. There are at least two high-profile cases of prosecution for the murder of unborn children in progress as we speak.

It is a matter of basic biology that the life cycle of a human being begins at conception, not at birth. People are not born spontaneously with no preliminary development. The fact that every fetus has a unique combination of DNA establishes that even before birth it is an individual human being. No amount of talk can eliminate the fact that a child in utero is a human being at the very beginning stages of life.

Malice is a misleading word in this context. A cold-blooded thug might kill without any emotion, including malice, but would still be a murderer.
142 posted on 08/24/2003 8:23:05 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: thoughtomator
142 - "Killing an enemy in war on the battlefield when he is armed and intends to kill you if he can is not murder, it is self-defense. "

The majority of the killing in war is not hand to hand 'self defense'. The majority is government sanctioned killing. All Wars start with an 'offense', not with a 'defense'.

"A person need not be born to be legally a person."
Try leaving something in your will to a fetus, and see what happens. A fetus is not a person. It is a potential person.

Look on your 'birth certificate' - it mentions nothing about 'conception' date. You are not legally a person till you are 'born'.

"It is a matter of basic biology that the life cycle of a human being begins at conception, not at birth. "

Sorry - the life cycle begins far before conception. The gametes must be alive prior to conjugating. Life does not begin at conception, it merely changes form.


143 posted on 08/24/2003 8:43:45 PM PDT by XBob
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To: thoughtomator
142 - "The death penalty I agree is state-sanctioned murder. Executions are murder, absolutely. "

So, will you please go arrest all those executioners, and people who enacted the laws for excution, as murder by definition is illegal, and executions are legal.
144 posted on 08/24/2003 8:48:54 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
So next question to you...when does a "POTENTIAL HUMAN" become a human????
Used to be that BABIES born before a specific week of gestation were almost certainly doomed...
Now, that benchmark is getting earlier and earlier in the gestational calendar.
How do YOU know when it is a human?
How does anyone know?
What if you are wrong?
Its a CHILD not a CHOICE...at some point, even by your own premise...
I'm not swearing or calling names.

I don't have your background in science.

But I DO KNOW that you CANNOT KNOW when a Fetus becomes a "HUMAN" because the criteria you cite changes all of the time...
Used to be 32 weeks, then 28 now I have 2 perfectly developed neighbor girls (5 and 4 years old) who were both born EXTREMELY prematurely (25 and 23 weeks gestationally) and they ARE NOT the exception anymore...

145 posted on 08/24/2003 8:50:38 PM PDT by M0sby (Proud Marine Corp's Wife!)
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To: XBob
Execution is a legal, but in my opinion morally wrong, method of murder. Were it that I had the power to change what is, I would outlaw execution as a form of punishment as per the 8th Amendment. Because of the injunction against ex post facto law, there would be no legal basis on which to prosecute executions performed before that date. However, if done afterwards, an execution would certainly be prosecuted as murder-one, as it would then be against the law to take another man's life. When I vote for President and my Representatve and Senators, I do take into account this issue.

And for the same reasons, abortion should not be legal. In the end, whatever the justifications given, it boils down to one man taking the life of another. Any line that might be drawn between conception and birth is artificial and ultimately, if based on fact, reduces to the original point of conception. The presence of a unique combination of human DNA proves the existence of another human being. This isn't opinion; this is defined biologically because it is what it is, not what it "is", if you know what I mean. If it turns out that 40% of embryos never make it, that is all the more reason not to kill the 60% that remain. I once felt like you, then I informed myself as to the facts of the matter and the truth, as much as it shocked me and defied my expectations, was undeniable.

146 posted on 08/24/2003 9:05:30 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: M0sby
145 - "But I DO KNOW that you CANNOT KNOW when a Fetus becomes a "HUMAN" because the criteria you cite changes all of the time...
Used to be 32 weeks, then 28 now I have 2 perfectly developed neighbor girls (5 and 4 years old) who were both born EXTREMELY prematurely (25 and 23 weeks gestationally) and they ARE NOT the exception anymore... "

Congratulations, you are one of the few making any sense on this thread, and congratulations on your children (born people).

If you have followed my comments through the years, which I am sure you haven't, personally I believe the same thing. It is an ongoing process. So personally, just for me, mind you, I have decided that I am against abortion of a 'viable' fetus. And as you rightly note, that changes as science and technology develop.

What I am really against, is all these people, insisting, that the moment a sperm penetrates an egg, they suddenly become alive, and that the sperm and egg weren't alive before, and that 'personhood' is conferred on that single cell made from 2 living gametes.

Most all these people argue that all human life should be preserved, and I argue that they better get busy, and take care of personas that are already born, before they confer personhood on a cell or a clump of cells or a fetus.

And if they insist, they need to stop all methods of birth control, and for all fertile women to screen their menses for fertilized eggs, and give them emergency support measures, to save the lives of these 'persons', 40% of which die naturally.

You, your wife and your children are lucky, youall want each other, and can support the children properly. That is great. (Would you want 10 more? 20 more - or would you consider abortion if she became pregnant with a large number of unborn 'people'?

The reason for abortions is that the potential person is unwanted, as it is too much of a problem to bring the potential person into real personhood, with all the effort, money, risks, and anguish, and resources which are necessary to accomplish the goal of adult 'personhood'.

I have spent too much time in too many underdeveloped, over populated countries to think that bringing more unwanted or more uneconomical people into a mess/morass is a good thing. Wanted children, who can be properly reared are wonderful things. Destroying societies, merely to satisfy hypocritical 'sacredness' is stupid.

I do not think all forms of human life are 'sacred', not with 6 billion of us overflowing this planet - we can't care for those we laready have:

sacred - 1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity -a tree sacred to the gods- b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose) a fund sacred to charity

2 a : worthy of religious veneration : HOLY b : entitled to reverence and respect
147 posted on 08/24/2003 9:35:03 PM PDT by XBob
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To: thoughtomator
146 - So, "Execution is a legal, but in my opinion morally wrong, method of murder." ... "And for the same reasons, abortion should not be legal."

So you wish to legally impose your morality on the rest of us?

I guess it is new to you that most here in Texas (and I think the US), agree with the death penalty, and that most in the US agree with the right to abortion.

Sorry, keep your morals in church, and practice them yourself, and start screening your wife's menses for fertilized eggs to save.
148 posted on 08/24/2003 9:42:34 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
On the contrary, it is you who wish to deny selectively the right to life of your fellow man. Majority opinion does not determine what is right and what is wrong. And one need not a Bible either to figure it out, just an education.
149 posted on 08/24/2003 9:51:54 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: thoughtomator
149 - How many of your wife's fertilized eggs have you saved from her menses? Or have you been selectively denying their right to life because you and she are too lazy to attempt it? Have you even checked her menses, or ever tried to save these 'lives'?

Put your efforts where your mouth is, or quit spouting off about your moral superiority.
150 posted on 08/24/2003 10:05:51 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
A discharged egg, fertilized or no, will not develop into a human being. This is so obvious I cannot help but think you are being deliberately dishonest.
151 posted on 08/24/2003 10:07:39 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: XBob
TO 147.
Ok, let's clear a few things up.
First, I am the wife.
Second, My children were not the premies. They are my neighbors.
Third, I cannot agree that an act of nature or biology occuring as a pregnancy terminates itself is the same thing as having an abortion. As a side note, I also don't agree with doctor assisted suicide or personal choice suicide either (and if I were present at either I would do whatever I could to stop it), I do support the death penalalty as it is a sociatal punishment (although I must honestly admit the the DNA evidence that has cleared several on death row has left me scratching my head).

Fourth, You don't have to agree with me or any of these others on this thread. But can you really be mad or frustrated with folks who see what they believe to be a PERSON being killed and are taking measures to prevent this or at least lobby against it? I believe that most of these same people would do much to help the poor, and underpriviledged wherever they saw/see them. It would be horrible if they walked right by a starving or dying child, right? When confronted with what they/I believe is the same kind of tragedy, if they/I did nothing, what kind of person would they/I be.

Fifth, How do you know (I say this respectfully) that they aren't "Getting busy taking care of persons who are already born"? And even if they aren't traveling to other countries to do so, they are doing the best that they can to help here and to prevent what they/I consider the ending of a human life.

Sixth, (Whew) I guess what I have read from you on this thread (not others, as you said, I have not followed you throughout the years) is that you are frustrated by folks who think that life begins at conception?
You beieve (I think) that they/I are wrong or at least hypocritical as they/I
*do nothing to prevent spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), *do not screen their/my menses for fertalized eggs and *don't have the same amout of vehamence against the death of "already born children" (or at least don't do as much to prevent it)?

My answer to these *'d items would be that I do the best I can.
I took care of myself while pregnant and encourage others who are pregnant to do the same. I cry with my girlfriends who have had miscarraiges.

I do not screen my menses.. but I addressed that earlier.

I do try to support those who are underpriviledged or dying in other countries (and here, for that matter). AND if someone was trying to deny me the ability to send support, or keep me from lobbying for support of these children, then they would be contributing to their decline and/or deaths. Also, just because these "already born" children are "unwanted" does not mean they should be killed, right? Maybe you think I/we should do more to help, and I'll tell you what, I agree with you.

So, I guess to wrap it up, (and I know you will not be swayed by my agruements) if I walked by as a "person" was being murdered, and did nothing, I would be doing something wrong, as I believe the killing of a person is wrong (yes, I also rescue little kittens and would rather not see WHERE my dinner comes from).
So, since I believe that when women are pregnant, they are pregnant with a little person, and if they, or anyone else, is trying to end the life of that person, I and I do NOTHING, I am wrong. (No, I would not shoot the doctor or burn down the clinic, but sometimes I think this is hypocritical)
You might want to take that into account as you disagree with folks/me about their absolute unwillingness to bend on this issue. They/I really believe that we are talking about a PERSON! I think I/we should do MORE to keep these "little ones" alive, not less.

I have tried to lay out my thoughts here without interjecting any religion as I think that might make you discount my entire stance...
Yes, in my family, we all want each other, and for that we are lucky! (plus, we planned it that way).
Yes, their are masses of children who are unwanted/ unplanned and dying because of it...
But that does not mean that since I can't help everyone, I should help no one!
Just remember when you get so frustrated with
"THESE PEOPLE" that they /I TRULY believe that this is a PERSON we are talking about... and what would you think of them/me if knowing this, I/WE did NOTHING?

Just a thought (or a few thoughts).. I tried to address each of your points from my point of view, if I missed any BIG ones, I apologise. Also sorry for any huge spelling errors, I am trying to be quick and I am a spelling disaster!



152 posted on 08/25/2003 7:07:22 AM PDT by M0sby (Proud Marine Corp's Wife!)
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To: thoughtomator
151 - "A discharged egg, fertilized or no, will not develop into a human being. This is so obvious I cannot help but think you are being deliberately dishonest."

My goodness, 'it is so obvious' that a fertilized egg is not a human being. I am glad we agree.
153 posted on 08/25/2003 5:56:21 PM PDT by XBob
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To: M0sby
152 - you made a thoughtful reply. Thankyou. I will review it more carefully and reply later.
154 posted on 08/25/2003 5:57:55 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
This insincere picking at details is getting tiring. The natural process includes the fertilized egg establishing itself in the uterus so that it may draw nutrients and develop. Regardless of how Darwinian the test of which egg it may be that starts that process, it does not change the fact that that process marks the beginning of a human life. Nature - God - Biology - Chance; whatever you want to call it, it is that which determines whether a new human life is started.

Once that is understood, the self-respecting man is compelled to defend the ultimate innocent, the unborn child. The child cannot speak for itself or even know that its existence hangs in the balance. What man could, after all, defend his own life and leave the defenseless to die? We would be properly disgusted at a man who let his children die rather than defend them. And so we should be at a society that does the same. And thus, as a man, I am compelled to do what can be done to persuade this society to see the truth and change its ways.

This can all be supported by religious argument (injunctions against child sacrifice primarily), but no holy book is necessary. We have discovered all of this to be true with science.
155 posted on 08/25/2003 6:42:28 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: thoughtomator
You can't have it both ways - either a fertilized egg is a human being, or it will develop into a human being. MEANING IT IS NOT YET A HUMAN BEING/PERSON - IT'S A FLIPPIN EGG.

I am getting tired of all the inconsistent arguments of youall who both defend doing nothing (when it comes to yourselves - not saving your fertilized eggs) and imposing your moral values (FORCING THE bringing unwanted children into the world) on the rest of us.

START SAVING YOUR OWN FERTILIZED EGGS AND BRINGING UP YOUR OWN UNWANTED CHILDREN.
156 posted on 08/26/2003 11:50:42 AM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
The pro-life stance is thoroughly consistent. Once the natural process of human life has started, it is wrong to end it. Discharged eggs have not begun that process. An egg properly implanted in the uterus has.

Nobody is forcing anyone to bring children into the world. There is no forced-pregnancy campaign, and never will be.

You do get the point, and on this I think we agree, that the purpose of legal abortion is to divorce sex from its consequences. One possible consequence of having sex is the beginning of a new human life. That's fact, that's reality, and it's not the government's job to eliminate the consequences of having sex.

Well, sex does have consequences, and if a person can't face those consequences, nobody is forcing them to have sex.

So be honest, and state straightforwardly that you support sex without consequence, and you are indifferent to the murder of children that makes this possible.
157 posted on 08/26/2003 12:17:44 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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To: thoughtomator
157 - start monitoring every egg, and making sure it is fertilized and implanted then.

You are 'murdering' all those 'children' which don't get born.

Monitor the hormones and temperature, every egg drop can be determined, every month - get busy - youall are dropping eggs without consequences.

And keep your liberal government grabbing hands off our bodies. ABORTION IS LEGAL - GET OVER IT, AND START SAVING YOUALL'S OWN EGGS. YOUALL HAVE THE ABILITY/CAPABILITY, SO GET OFF YOUR LAZY BUTTS AND DO IT, IT IS IN YOUR CONTROL.
158 posted on 08/26/2003 3:56:58 PM PDT by XBob
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To: thoughtomator
YOUALL CAN TAKE EVERY ONE OF YOUR FEMALE EGGS AND FERTILIZE THEM AND IMPLANT THEM AND 'SAVE' THEM - GET BUSY AND DO IT.
159 posted on 08/26/2003 3:58:22 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
Well your now clearly dishonest argument, while intellectually useless and morally indifferent, does help to illustrate the article which started the thread.

Ten. Simply restating without defending the merit of the position.

Let me know when you grow up if you want some answers.

160 posted on 08/26/2003 4:49:00 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Welcome to the Iraq Roach Motel - Islamofascists check in, but they don't check out!)
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