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Why FREE TRADE was never the answer.
self | 7/28/03 | RaceBannon

Posted on 07/28/2003 6:36:40 PM PDT by RaceBannon

There has been a few threads on here where Free Trader enthusiasts have defended their view, and have been responded to by those who feel that Free Trade is not helping the American Economy, in fact, is part of the reason we are NOT going to see a great recovery any time soon.

I am one of the latter. The following is a cut and paste job, taken from my own comments on these threads, which I feel tell my side of the story.

Some of the points are repeatd, 3 and 4 times. That is because I feel they are the forgotten reasons and ideas why we are in what I believe are dire economic straits.

Feel free to comment.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: freetrade; gatt; nafta; traitors
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To: Cacophonous
"You are so much smarter and sophisticated than those silly old guys in the white wigs that founded the country."

If he can work an ATM he is. If he can manage an IRA electronically he is. Indeed, I wouldn't trust my economy to a bunch of dead guys who couldn't even figure out how to make the time stop flashing on their VCR.

81 posted on 07/28/2003 7:52:13 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: RaceBannon
Have patience. Machine skills are good. We are going to need them to pull the country back out of the coming dark ages. Welding is also a good skill to have regardless.

Prior to Y2K, the UN website still had its famous documents on "sustainable development" for the various landmasses around the world. The UN imagined that the US landmass could only support 26 million, or about 10% of its current inhabitants. Somehow, magically, the other 90% would just cease to exist, or disappear, or vaporize, or something like that.

You are correct that most of the people espousing "free trade" on FR are uneducated. Most of them are newbies, not only to FR, but to the real world. Most of them are government employees or retirees, and think (wrongfully) that their income and assets will be secure through this depression. Most of them will end up on a barbeque spit or in a stewpot, right along with their liberal kin.

And it won't take twenty years, or ten years. It may well be within five years. As soon as the welfare checks don't show up, or as soon as the checks won't buy food.

I will be deeply saddened and disappointed.

82 posted on 07/28/2003 7:52:27 PM PDT by meadsjn
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To: LibertyAndJusticeForAll
The new increase in profits is not being passed on to the consumer or even the stockholder.

Now that's a new one. Who is the profit being passed on to, then?

83 posted on 07/28/2003 7:52:37 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: TheSpottedOwl
Differenet Roosevelt. Eleanor was married to Franklin. Like it matters.
84 posted on 07/28/2003 7:52:44 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
That's closer, and you get points for marking the difference between free trade and free markets.

Would you support free trade between free market economies?

85 posted on 07/28/2003 7:53:11 PM PDT by egomeimihi (current 1L at Seattle U)
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To: Cacophonous
Sowell is longwinded and overly impressed with himself. I have "The Vision of the Anointed", and read it. Don't see my free tradin' self in it at all. What's yer point?
86 posted on 07/28/2003 7:53:49 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (...ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever...)
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To: CWOJackson; Chancellor Palpatine
Since I assume you are being facetious, I will let it go. I do disagree with CP's description of them as normal men doing extraordinary things. They - Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, et alia would be extraordinary in any situation in any time. Noone else could have done what they did.
87 posted on 07/28/2003 7:55:32 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: egomeimihi
On the one hand you rail against free trade and call its supporters Marxists, but on the other hand you admit that what we have going on really isn't free trade at all.

It's not even close to being free. In China when a tool and die shop opens, that government provides the building, the electricity and much of the raw materials needed. There isn't a minimum wage and the workers aren't free to bargain for more money ---they take what they get. In the USA when someone tries to open a tool and die shop, our government makes it as difficult for them to make it as possible, it's got building codes, OSHA inspectors, very large taxes, etc. Plus American labor can't work for dirt because we have extremely high taxes to pay, including property taxes.

88 posted on 07/28/2003 7:55:40 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You should read "Conflict". Study up on his description of the unconstrained vision.

True, nothing Sowell says is earth-shattering, but it's a different perspective.

89 posted on 07/28/2003 7:57:18 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
And all of them would probably have totally different opinions being fully knowledgeable with the world economy of today.
90 posted on 07/28/2003 7:57:21 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: RaceBannon
great post, great rant.. i will pass this on to a few people..
91 posted on 07/28/2003 7:57:56 PM PDT by wafflehouse (the hell you say!)
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To: egomeimihi
Yes, with the conditions Adam Smith laid out in "A Wealth of Nations".
92 posted on 07/28/2003 7:58:18 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Alberta's Child
Nobody with an IQ over 40 is going to spend $200,000 for a system upgrade to realize a savings of $125,000.

A 1.6 year payback period is actually a pretty damn nice ROI. It would be even nicer, of course, if you invested only 75K instead of 200K. But nobody with an IQ over 41 would use your goofy numbers for an example.

93 posted on 07/28/2003 7:59:27 PM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: CWOJackson
If he can work an ATM he is. If he can manage an IRA electronically he is. Indeed, I wouldn't trust my economy to a bunch of dead guys who couldn't even figure out how to make the time stop flashing on their VCR.

They also had a different definition of wealth back then. Today that whiz-kid with the VCR probably thinks he's wealthy because he's got all the latest electronics but hasn't tried to buy a house, lives paycheck to paycheck, "invests" his money in a $25,000 car, and is so far in debt, he may never get out.

94 posted on 07/28/2003 8:00:11 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Me: Apparently you think people aren't entitled to live. Could you tell me about yourself?

You: No.

Well then let me guess.

You support oppression, even murder of people opposed to your point of view.

You are a neocon.

You think globalism is a good thing.

You want America to continue fighting as a proxy in the Middle East.

America First is a concept you hate.

95 posted on 07/28/2003 8:00:41 PM PDT by UnBlinkingEye
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To: Cacophonous
Differenet Roosevelt. Eleanor was married to Franklin. Like it matters.

My bad?

Nope doesn't really matter, bother of them were socialists.

96 posted on 07/28/2003 8:01:00 PM PDT by TheSpottedOwl (You bring tar, I'll bring feathers....recall Davis in 03!!!)
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To: egomeimihi
Although in theory free trade seems a laudible goal, the reality of the human condition makes it such that the greedy and amoral in this country will do everything possible toi create an utterly chaotic mess for the average person.
97 posted on 07/28/2003 8:01:03 PM PDT by chris1
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To: CWOJackson
Just out of curiosity, what do you see different about today's economy that would advocate "free trade", when historically we never have?
98 posted on 07/28/2003 8:01:32 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: FITZ
Yes, but back then the average kid would consider himself lucky if he had a mule less then ten years old. He would be damned fortunate if he didn't work himself to death on his farm by the age of 50.

At the same time the gentry...including our founding fathers...were engaged in smuggling (the ultimate form of free trade) to avoid paying customs on their products to the English. The funny thing is that those same founding fathers continued to exercise free trade (smuggling) after the war because they didn't want to pay the same customs to their own government. Which prompted the establishment of the Revenue Cutter Service by Alexander Hamilton and an act of Congress...the start of big government.

99 posted on 07/28/2003 8:05:03 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Willie Green
Please note, Mr. Green, that I deliberately avoided using the term "annual" in front of "savings" in this example. I have no idea what the actual numbers were -- I'm reciting this all from memory, and I'm using these numbers for the purpose of illustrating exactly what that IT guy was trying to say.

I'm now in the process of starting a new department at the small company where I work. Part of the problem is that I won't be able to compete in this field without a specific software package that runs for around $65,000 these days. My company will not be buying that software at that price. If we find a comparable software package from an overseas supplier for $25,000 or so, we will probably but it. If it happens, people can complain all they want about how we are "screwing the American worker" by going to a foreign supplier. But I can assure you that this would not be the case -- because we aren't buying it for $65,000 under any circumstances.

100 posted on 07/28/2003 8:05:52 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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