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Why FREE TRADE was never the answer.
self | 7/28/03 | RaceBannon

Posted on 07/28/2003 6:36:40 PM PDT by RaceBannon

There has been a few threads on here where Free Trader enthusiasts have defended their view, and have been responded to by those who feel that Free Trade is not helping the American Economy, in fact, is part of the reason we are NOT going to see a great recovery any time soon.

I am one of the latter. The following is a cut and paste job, taken from my own comments on these threads, which I feel tell my side of the story.

Some of the points are repeatd, 3 and 4 times. That is because I feel they are the forgotten reasons and ideas why we are in what I believe are dire economic straits.

Feel free to comment.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: freetrade; gatt; nafta; traitors
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To: RaceBannon
That's a lot to read. The current appeal of free trade has to do with the Great Depression. When we could produce millions of Model T's and radios and couldn't find anyone at home to buy them, free trade started to look very good. We may eventually face another crisis because of free trade, but for the time being, it's hard to get over the lesson of that time. A country that produces a lot, or that owns factories elsewhere that produce a lot, is usually going to favor free trade so that more of those goods can be sold.
21 posted on 07/28/2003 7:03:50 PM PDT by x
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To: x
Historically, we were not free traders until the 1960s under Kennedy. The Depression was long forgotten by then; whoever fed you that line is lying.
22 posted on 07/28/2003 7:05:57 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Gunslingr3
People against free trade are now quoting Marx?! This is too rich...

It fits. He is their theoretical hero.

23 posted on 07/28/2003 7:06:28 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (...ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever...)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; harpseal
An "entitled to a living thread" ping.

...showing that you didnt even read what I typed out....

It is you Free Traitors that are the communists, not me.

24 posted on 07/28/2003 7:06:48 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Alberta's Child
Please let me send you my resume?? Please??
25 posted on 07/28/2003 7:07:58 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: dogbyte12
Someone posted a great thread the other day about his new job as a project manager for IT work that is outsourced to Russia and Poland. He said something to the effect that outsourcing the work to Eastern Europe has allowed the IT industry to reduce the cost of this particular system from $200,000 to $75,000.

"But look at those American jobs going overseas," someone complained, "That's $200,000 that would have been spent doing the work here in the U.S."

"Wrong," this guy replied, "Because if the work had cost $200,000 to begin with, my client would never have hired us at all. It only made sense for them to upgrade their inventory control system because the cost was $75,000 and not $200,000."

In other words, the net effect on the U.S. labor pool was zero. The client wasn't going to have Americans do the work for $75,000 (because the U.S. market rate for the work was $200,000), he wasn't going to have Americans (or Russians, for that matter) do the work for $200,000 either (because the cost would have been prohibitive).

I don't know what the answer to anyone's long-term employment problem is, but this little exchange was a rare look at exactly how the whole dynamic of "outsourcing" works.

26 posted on 07/28/2003 7:09:43 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; Cacique
People against free trade are now quoting Marx?! This is too rich...
It fits. He is their theoretical hero.

...proving TWICE...you didnt even read the post...

It is YOU FREE TRAITORS that are the Marxist supporters!

27 posted on 07/28/2003 7:09:47 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon
Whatever.

***yawn***

28 posted on 07/28/2003 7:09:50 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (...ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever...)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Who is the theoretical hero of the "free traders"? Bill Clinton? Al Gore? Some other "free trader"?
29 posted on 07/28/2003 7:09:55 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
Many Americans have lost the ability to think critically, and have replaced it with the impulse to ridicule and the ability to spew righteous indignation.

Qoute of the week!

30 posted on 07/28/2003 7:11:44 PM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: RaceBannon
You have mail.
31 posted on 07/28/2003 7:12:00 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: RaceBannon
...proving TWICE...you didnt even read the post...

It is YOU FREE TRAITORS that are the Marxist supporters!

Umm... zot TWICE?

32 posted on 07/28/2003 7:12:11 PM PDT by egomeimihi (current 1L at Seattle U)
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To: AriOxman; kphockey2
My advice to you is switch to a trade that is Electrical Engineering related.

Engineering jobs, design jobs, are going to disappear. If you can, beg, borrow , and steal to work for a POWER COMPANY, the people who you pay your electric bill to. They will always have work...until they learn touse a transporter to move electrons to yur house anyways...
33 posted on 07/28/2003 7:13:40 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon
You are completely right and all the mockers of the unemployed won't be laughing when they also are unemployed and I believe what goes around will come around for them. Anyone who thinks it's great that the Chinese Communists are becoming the world's leading machinists and die makers and that American die makers are cleaning carpets to hang onto their houses is a complete total idiot. Those types would deserve to lose their jobs.
34 posted on 07/28/2003 7:14:01 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: RaceBannon
If I remember correctly, Adam Smith believed in Tariffs, and this is one reason why.

Excerpted and condensed from:

Adam Smith: The Wealth of Nations, Book 4, Chapter 2

Of Restraints upon the Importation from Foreign Countries
of such Goods as can be produced at Home

"There seem, however, to be two cases in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of domestic industry...

  • The first is, when some particular sort of industry is necessary for the defence of the country....

  • The second case, in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of domestic industry is, when some tax is imposed at home upon the produce of the latter. In this case, it seems reasonable that an equal tax should be imposed upon the like produce of the former....

As there are two cases in which it will generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign for the encouragement of domestic industry, so there are two others in which it may sometimes be a matter of deliberation; in the one, how far it is proper to continue the free importation of certain foreign goods; and in the other, how far, or in what manner, it may be proper to restore that free importation after it has been for some time interrupted....

  • The case in which it may sometimes be a matter of deliberation how far it is proper to continue the free importation of certain foreign goods is, when some foreign nation restrains by high duties or prohibitions the importation of some of our manufactures into their country. Revenge in this case naturally dictates retaliation, and that we should impose the like duties and prohibitions upon the importation of some or all of their manufactures into ours....

  • The case in which it may sometimes be a matter of deliberation, how far, or in what manner, it is proper to restore the free importation of foreign goods, after it has been for some time interrupted, is, when particular manufactures, by means of high duties or prohibitions upon all foreign goods which can come into competition with them, have been so far extended as to employ a great multitude of hands. Humanity may in this case require that the freedom of trade should be restored only by slow gradations, and with a good deal of reserve and circumspection. Were those high duties and prohibitions taken away all at once, cheaper foreign goods of the same kind might be poured so fast into the home market as to deprive all at once many thousands of our people of their ordinary employment and means of subsistence. The disorder which this would occasion might no doubt be very considerable....


35 posted on 07/28/2003 7:14:17 PM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: egomeimihi
You didnt read it either, did you?

Cuz, there wasn't one shred of hint that I wanted socialism, I was screaming against socialism being used against us...but then, you would have known that if you actually read what I wrote...
36 posted on 07/28/2003 7:15:04 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Alberta's Child
That sounds like a nice contrasting statement, but it is much more complex than that. Its not (to me) an issue of trade as in total trade. It is an issue of what kind of trade relations we have.

If corporations focus doggedly on sourcing from overseas, but negelect developing those markets themselves, then we have a problem. The ultimate goal is balanced trade, which 90% of the 'free trade' people neglect. What they promote is not free trade anyway.

I think if we have anything really resembling free trade we should pursue it. The agreements of "sourcing from overseas only" with the intent of merely importing should be abandoned.

Importing from overseas should have the focus and restrictions on business that promote development of overseas markets.

Its not the idea of sourcing, but the idea developing...Right now though its a rush to the bottom of the barrel, which sucks economically. They can cut costs like that but they are going to have a hell of a hard time adding $$$ to the top line like that. I want TOP LINE growth.

37 posted on 07/28/2003 7:15:04 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: RaceBannon
If your worried about making a living, go into trades. Almost impossible for foreigners to compete in and the current shortage of skilled tradesmen is dwindling.
38 posted on 07/28/2003 7:15:41 PM PDT by Dat
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To: RaceBannon
Do you have any idea what the going rate for a licensed electrician is these days? For heaven's sake, those guys don't even need any customer service skills at all -- they can ignore 90% of the phone calls they get, and still make money hand over fist!

39 posted on 07/28/2003 7:16:08 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Cacophonous
We don't have theoretical heroes, and don't feel it necessary to gank the writings of some egghead to support pragmatism.

Geez, if you dorks of the far left and far right would learn that political, legal and economic philosophers do what they do because they can't make their way through the real world, your lives would make a whole hell of a lot more sense, and be lots more fun.

40 posted on 07/28/2003 7:16:27 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (...ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever...)
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