Pilots Soak Up Firearms Training

Atlanta Journal Constitution (via Firearmnews.com) ^ | Mary Lou Pickel

[heckler]

BRUNSWICK -- If there's one thing an armed pilot cannot do, it is allow a terrorist to take the gun away.

That's why 12 pairs of sweaty airline pilots punched, grabbed and pulled at each other at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center here Wednesday. They were learning how to ward off an attacker trying to get their pistols.

The pilots are part of the latest group of 44 training for federal approval to carry guns in the cockpit to deter terrorist attacks -- and defend their planes and passengers if one occurs.

[cc2k]

Isn't airline safety the reason the glaser safety bullet was developed?

Yes, I believe that was the main reason those "safety bullets" were developed.

However, the main danger in an aircraft isn't shooting out the side of the fuselage or shooting out a window. The main danger is shooting through the interior dividers and hitting an unintended target.

Small bullet holes in the outer walls of the passenger cabin would not be a serious problem. The windows of most airliners are made of a polycarbonate material (Lexan™ or an equivalent). They don't shatter, and they are somewhat bullet proof. Even if a bullet penetrates a window, it will only make a small hole. The way the cabin pressurization works on most airliners, you would have to take out a couple of entire windows before the pressure will fall off in the passenger cabin. Of course, if an entire window comes out, there's going to be a very strong wind sucking things out the window hole. But on most airliners, the cabin pressure system could pump enough air in (and through) to maintain pressure even with one entire window out. Small bullet holes would be inconsequential.

[big_Rob]

Thanks for the info. I think heckler was right in saying the reason for the safety slug (what an oxymoron) is to prevent other passengers from getting hit on a pass throughs. These bullets were developed quite some time ago, 70's or 80's perhaps. Did aircraft have the same capabilities then as they do now? I know most planes flying now are really old, but I try not to think about that.

[TXnMA]

"Those 8 shot filled gelatinous bullets that don't penetrate much..."

Not exactly correct: The Glaser Safety Slug is technically a "pre-fragmented bullet".

Here s how Glaser describes the product:

Glaser Safety Slug

Glaser BLUE uses #12 shot compressed into a nearly solid form. (#12 shot is about the size of a ball in a ball point pen or maybe the head of a stick pin).

The Glaser BLUE produces immediate energy dispersal into the target, reducing the possibility of over penetration and creating abrupt stopping power. The numerous projectiles expand outward generating an effective wound cavity and a wide secondary stretch cavity.

Glaser SILVER is made up of #6 shot compressed to form a core. (#6 shot is much larger - akin to something the size of a peppercorn. With the SILVER load you get much larger segments - deeper penetration and numerous wound cavities.

Both loads reduce the possibility of overpenetration through the intended target. They provide for an added margin of safety. A missed round is much more likely to break up on an interior wall and dump its energy rather than proceeding unabated into an ajoining room.

The light, fast bullets reduce the felt recoil and are excellent loads for the small compact carry guns and snubnose revolvers. For over 27 years the Glaser Safety Slug has been the overwhelming choice for the "house gun" stored in the nightstand.

Before settling on my carry loadout, I tested many different cartridge loads -- including the Glaser Blue. Most of the time, upon hitting an object, the Glaser slug breaks up into a cloud of (not quite) lead 'dust', with the individual particles retaining little residual kinetic energy. The ricocheting copper jacket, OTOH, might produce superficial cuts, but is hardly life-threatening.

If I can find time, I will post a comment detailing tests I did on gallon milk jugs filled with water. The differences between the Glaser, hollowpoints, and full-jacketed "hardball" slugs was dramatic.

Suffice it to say that my carry HK P7 mag is loaded with Federal 115 gr hollowpoints -- topped off with a Glaser, and with a Glaser "in the pipe".

I'd feel quite safe flying with a trained pilot whose piece was loaded with Glasers...

[JohnGalt]

Excellent post.

This article completely misses the undermining of the 'arming pilots program.' Any idea where you saw that article?

I recall reading it on Free Republic but folks should read it.

[TXnMA]

Oops -- added emphasis is mine...

[RKV]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/939396.asp
“The TSA has announced they are moving [armed pilot] training to another training site that is a four-hour drive from anywhere and thousands of miles from the current site, thus uprooting instructors if they choose to move and needing to hire others if they do not,” said a statement from the Airline Pilots Security Alliance, an advocacy group representing pilots volunteering for the program."

[NYFriend]

Just to expand, or clarify, a little. The Glaser also makes sure that the bullet dumps 100% of its kinetic energy into the target. It's safe for people on the other side of a wall, or people exposed to ricochet, but not at all safe for a person struck dead on by the bullet.

I remember reading a book by the old outfitter, guide and author Hearder (can't remember his fist name, just his brother's name, Jacque). Anyway, he talked about being able to make a big game round out of any full power shotgun cartridge by cutting and opening in the cardboard shell (very old book, pre-plastic shells) and pouring wax over the shot to keep it togeather. I have no idea if this really would work or not, thought the theory is sound. This is basically how a glaser works.

[Don Corleone]

A Flight Attendant, Stewardess, Cabin Cutie, with PMS is still a good first line of defense!

[Travis McGee]

Cool! An armed pilot in the air makes me feel safer than 10,000 federal bureaucrats on the ground.

Roger that!

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Pilots who pass the training, background and psychological tests are deputized as federal flight deck officers with jurisdiction in the cockpit of their aircraft.

Whew! THAT is a relief!!

Pilots who do NOT "pass the background and psychological tests" darn well shouldn't be driving fully loaded airliners God-only-knows-where.

If the pilot does NOT have "jurisdiction in the cockpit of their aircraft," who the heck DOES?

[PsyOp]

Isn't airline safety the reason the glaser safety bullet was developed?

As far as I know they were designed for law-enforcement generally to reduce the hazard of bullets passing through walls and people should police need to use their weapons, thereby protecting innocent bystanders. Use on airplanes being just one of the many places they're ideal for.

[rockfish59]

I hear that toenail clippers are the hot item on the street now!
The BATF just raided our drug store for having a cache of 'Assault Style' clippers!!
You never know when a high schooler will 'go off' on a clipping spree.......
Something the Million Mom Marchers, Dianne Feinstein and Sarah Brady are just waiting for!

[henderson field]

Norman Yoshio Minetta's parents were suspected Japanese saboteurs during World War II. He hates America and is trying to reduce our freedoms. He has got to go.

[henderson field]

Norman Yoshio Minetta's parents were suspected Japanese saboteurs during World War II. He hates America and is trying to reduce our freedoms. He has got to go.

[Darksheare]

Emery boards are next!
Just wait until someone gets filed to death.. It'll be a massacre!
Clipped and filed, oh the humanity!
(Sometimes I wonder if they actually read FR, and get some of their harebrained ideas off of our sarcasm thinking that our sarcasm is a good idea...)

[dogbrain]

"...my carry HK P7 mag is loaded with Federal 115 gr hollowpoints -- topped off with a Glaser, and with a Glaser "in the pipe"."

Nice to see another P7 fan here.
What's the purpose of the 2 Glassers?
I carry the heavier 147 gr. Federal Hydra-Shocks in my M8.

[RKV]

Me too, I wish I had another one. M13 maybe? Mine eats any darn ammo I put in it and I practice with the cheap Winchester range ammo.

[vikk]

Oh, can you explain those gelatinous bullets? Ever since they started talking about arming pilots, I've been wondering how they were preparing for the contingency of a depressurization from a bullet.

[rockfish59]

Sarcasm?

I'm telling the truth!!! =^)