Posted on 07/24/2003 11:31:43 AM PDT by nickcarraway
Scriptura Christianity was born at Pentecost. Sola scriptura Christianity was unknown until the Lollards invented it in the 13th century, and unrealistic until the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg.
An authentically Biblical Christian hears Paul when he commends the Thessalonians for adhering to the traditions he taught them, "whether by letter or by word of mouth".
But I don't sneer at sola scriptura; I mourn it. Because of it, the Body of Christ is riven by thousands of divisions.
Well, it worked for Scott Hahn.
The thief could have understood from the Old Testament that Jesus would die and redeem many and be resurrected.
Somehow the thief knew both that Jesus was Lord and was going to come into His kingdom and had faith that He would have mercy on Him despite that they were both dying. Jesus answer also confirmed to the man that he was headed for Paradise.
The point of Romans 4 is that it's faith that saves both in the Old Testament and new. Paul doesn't even mention baptism until chapter 6.
First it doesn't specify "water" baptism. It could be, and I believe is talking about "spirit" baptism. Water is mentioned in the previous verse as part the Noah comparison that Peter is making. But remember what John the Baptist said, I baptize you with water, but the One that is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Paul does call the Baptism of John, the baptism of repentance.
When you look at the verse it says "Baptism now saves you ... as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." It's the appeal that is doing the saving, not the baptismal ceremony.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
Water baptism is important because it's the first act of obedience for a Christian, even as it was Jesus' first act of obedience upon beginning his full-time ministry. It's also a very visual testimony of what is going on in the life of the believer. But based on how many scriptures leave it out, I don't beleive it is critical to the process.
There are several sections of scripture that deal with how to obtain salvation or eternal life. I group them into three sections:
The first, are scriptures where Jesus tells people to fully obey the law in order to have eternal life. But in each case, he does this so people will recognize their sin, and recognize that they haven't obeyed the law.
The second have to do with faith in Jesus, being born again, spirit baptism and calling upon the name of Jesus. These don't mention water baptism at all, but they do mention faith or appeal in one form or another.
The third group call on having faith and include baptism. It's clear that baptism is a command. But because baptism is only included in a couple of the many scriptures telling how to be saved, it becomes obvious that it is not absolutely critical to the process.
Another place that you see this is in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus. It's clear that it's the Spirit baptism that is important.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In fact the churches I have been apart of, if a person has a medical condition that makes water immersion impractical or dangerous. The church simply votes to waive baptism for the individual.
Had a protestant pastor who was in a hospital one night and someone mistook him for a priest and asked him to bless him. The pastor realized this aspect of catholism and blessed the guy rather than tell him that he wasn't Catholic.
I would never call the crucifixion a mere "external ritual". First it was necessary from a legal standpoint. God had decreed that the penalty for sin was death.
The pain and suffering that the Lord went through, from sweating drops of blood to the beatings and the lashes and the crown of thorns and then carrying the cross, the agonizing death of the cross and finally the separation from the Father.
That's hardly a ritual. That's real. That's substantive.
Seriously, why is there always someone like you that like to bring Catholics down?
Trajan88... a Baptised, Confirmed Catholic
Danny, the context mentions water. The word "spirit" is not even used in the verse. The reason Peter brings up Noah is purely and simply because his audience will relate Noah to water, and water to baptism.
Baptism now saves you ... as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." It's the appeal that is doing the saving, not the baptismal ceremony.
What you're essentially doing is editing Scripture to conform to your POV. The verse says "baptism now saves you". Why is that such a problem? Of course it doesn't save because it is a physical washing of dirt from the body, but because it is, itself, "an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Don't say "it's the appeal that saves, not the baptism" ... the baptism is the appeal, the verse says that very clearly.
But based on how many scriptures leave it out, I don't beleive it is critical to the process.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Sorry, but Jesus seemed to think it was pretty critical. I'll defer to his authority on the question. But remember what John the Baptist said, I baptize you with water, but the One that is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Paul does call the Baptism of John, the baptism of repentance.
My namesake's blood is on the hands of a certain government and religious bureaucracy on the banks of the Thames, thank you very much. That's a Protestant religious bureaucracy, BTW.
Edmund Campion's crime was saying Mass and hearing confessions for the few, brave Catholics left in England under Elizabeth I. For his "treason," he was tortured on the rack, then hung, drawn, and quartered.
There are plenty of martyrs on both sides of the Reformation. Ask some Catholic Germans or Poles sometime how the fine Lutheran soldiers of King Gustavus Adolphus treated their ancestors during the 30 Years' War.
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