Bush Road Map Plan Calls For Creating Palestinian Arab State By December 2003, Not In 2005

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I'm sure if you asked a question, Alouette would be glad to ask it, as would I, or direct you to a source.

But as you note, there are lot of retreads, you recognize the twisted facts and the tone of the posts, and their objective is to spew them out what nonsense they can and hope some of it sticks in some lurkers mind, not to have a discussion. On a good day, with some luck and assorted accusations, they can change the tone of the entire thread, which IMO is frequently an objective, not facts and substance.

You have Freepmail.

I'll give it a try.

1.Israel--we do pay them over 3$ Billion a year in TAXPAYER Money, plus load them down with whatever weapons they want.

It is my understanding that Israel buys back weapons from the US with that 3 billion, the weapons are not a "plus"

2. No. But our support for Israel will not win us any Arab friends.

And our support for the Saudis have? It's almost a no win with these people.

3. Egypt did not attack Israel in 1967. Israel attacked Egypt on June 5, 1967 and launched a strike against their airfields.

Didn't the Egyptians move their military forces and machinary to attack positions prior to Israel launching? Also, didn't the Egyptians cut off a water supply route, which (someone correct me if I'm mistaken) was considered an act of war by International standards?

In my opinion, Israel's pre-emptive strike was 110% justified. What would you have done in their place?

4. Jordan had a mutual defense treaty with Egypt.

Wasn't Jordan also building up their military along the borders before any attack took place. This would have been an offensive move, not a help your buddy defend himself in an unjustified attack.

5. The British had Transjordan--Palestine and Jordan. Neither the British nor the Jordanians acted towards the Palestinian population in the harsh manner that the Israelis do.

They only had to kick them out brutally when the "Palestinians" tried to take over Jordan.

6. The British turned over the territory to the UN because of Jewish Terrorism, from such men as Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.

This comment is too simplistic, and I don't remember enough of that history right now to debate.

Good. Maybe then we can stop being beholden to a foreign country.

Which country is that?

Maybe then we can have peace with at least some of the Arabs.

Let me guess, our friendship with Israel is the reason we had 9/11?

I am all for the Road map. Israel has no right to take the WB and Gaza for their own--they already took more than the original UN partition alloted them

Let see here. You fail to mention the fact that the reason Israel's territory expanded was because it was attacked and it was in need of territory to defend itself. Without Judea, Samaria and Gaza, Israel would have been destroyed in 1973.

If they try to implement this road map, we should all hope that it's a great success and brings peace to the region. I don't think it will, but statements like yours just bring to light a very disturbing attitude held here on FreeRepublic

The roadmap has already been tried to be implemented - It was under the name "Oslo" in 1994.

Amen Contra, both sides are to blame, including Israel.

How is Israel to blame?

You sound just like a DUmmie.

If you think the we don't have peace with Arabs because of Israel, then you need to read history books written by someone other than Gnome Chomsky, Howeird Zinn, and Edweird Said.

Don't expect Contra to address any of your factual points. 2 to 1 says he goes for a red herring, instead.

Exactly. I hope we suceed, and there is peace. There will be no peace until both sides back off, and that includes dismantling illegal settlements.

So Israel should "back off" from destroying terrorism and the Arabs should "back off" from committing terrorism?

Remember, this occupation of the WB and Gaza cost US money everyday and inflame the rest of the world against us. Our government gives some 3$ to Israel--I cannot believe there are people who complain about the AIDS initiative but do not complain about the tens of billions we have GIVEN AWAY to buy arms for Israel.

Hmm....First of all you fail to note most if the money given to Israel is the form of loans which have always been repaid. You want to talk about money, talk about the money with give to Egypt which funds some of this terrorism through their underground tunnels.

And it has brought us nothing but terrorism.

Like 9/11?

Israeli leader Moshe Dayan once said"we will take American Money, we will take American weapons and when Americans give us advice we shall ignore it."

Source please.

Doesn't sound to me like it is worth $3 billion to subsidize a state that just causes us problems.

Already answered.

1.Israel--we do pay them over 3$ Billion a year in TAXPAYER Money, plus load them down with whatever weapons they want.

No, not PLUS load them with whatever weapons they want - they are required to spend a certain amount of our grant money on our weapons. And how much aid do we give to Egypt? The PA? Jordan? Any number of other countries?

2. No. But our support for Israel will not win us any Arab friends.

Being right isn't always popular. But a better point - number 2 should actually read, "Being a nation that supports terror and rewards the killing of innocents will not win the Arabs any friends." It is they who should worry about us and our friendship, not the other way around. Why exactly should we concern ourselves with courting such countries?

3. Egypt did not attack Israel in 1967. Israel attacked Egypt on June 5, 1967 and launched a strike against their airfields.

First of all, Egypt LED the Arab nations in their 1967 aggression against Israel by moving into the Sinai, expelling UN peacekeepers and closing the straits of Tiran, which prompted Israel's other neighbors to move to her borders. 2 days later, Pres Nasser said "our common goal is the destruction of Israel" and signed defense pacts with Jordan and Iraq. But no, Egypt did not attack Israel, not at all. Now tell me something - if the US were faced with the same set of circumstances here in the Americas, what do you think we would do? Would we even let things go so far?

4. Jordan had a mutual defense treaty with Egypt.

I reference the above quote by Nasser. And in 1948, you are saying that Jordan was obligated to take - and KEEP, over the objections of the Arab League - the West Bank?

5. The British had Transjordan--Palestine and Jordan. Neither the British nor the Jordanians acted towards the Palestinian population in the harsh manner that the Israelis do.

Are you kidding me? More Palestinians have been killed or expelled by Arabs than by Israel! Examples - Jordan massacred thousands of Palestinians in 1970 and expelled a bunch more after an assassination attempt on King Hussein. Kuwait expelled 400k of them in 1990. And if the Arabs love their Palestinian brothers so much, why are they still in refugee camps?

And what about the 800k Jewish refugees from Arab countries, expelled in 1948? How come they have been repatriated and aren't clamouring for reparations from refugee camps?

6. The British turned over the territory to the UN because of Jewish Terrorism, from such men as Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.

The British turned over the territory to the UN because of pressure from the Arabs. After being duplicitous for years, they washed their hands, Pilate-style.

I hear you. :) But I'm having fun dusting off a few facts - it's been a while since I got my dander up about Israel.

Did you know that some banned Freepers still lurk here? Yesterday I got a hate mail (through the hotmail account on my profile page) from a ZOTTEE taking issue with remarks I made on this thread. I wonder if anyone else here has been harrassed by the art object?

Are you serious?

Don't even try discussing the issue with evil people like him/her. They're all trying to bring about their armageddon. They'll stop at nothing. They're not interested in peace. Or even striving for it.

Let's look at the post you suggest is evil:

Who gives a flip about the UN??? Hopefully, G. Bush will be an utter and complete failure with this roadmap to disaster...

Suggesting the UN is worthliess is "evil?"

The Roadmap will be a disaster, because one side doesn't want peace. Unfortunately you are deluded into pointing at the wrong party.

Understood and noted. I just like to see responses like your post 20 for all those lurkers out there.

Thanks for the response, some days I just don't have the patience to type that kind of response for the umpteenth time.

Some of these guys would find their true brethren on the DU forums. Funny that the "tolerant" liberals are the most crass, rude, and hateful. (and wrong!)

Why the Road Map is a fraud, from this weeks "HonestReporting.com" communique:

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1) CRACKDOWN ON TERROR

The text of the road map calls on Palestinian leadership "to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere." http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

Yet speaking in Cairo on Tuesday, Abbas rejected this most basic tenet. Abbas said that "Cracking down on Hamas, Jihad and the Palestinian organizations is not an option at all." http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/23/1058853098702.html

Associated Press, however, creates an opposite impression with this July 20 headline: "Palestinians Outlaw Violent Groups." You have to read the article to find out that the PA merely recycled a 1998 law that outlaws violence and corruption.
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/504.asp

Meanwhile London's Independent reported: " Details are emerging of how, in an effort to shore up the splits in Fatah and the Al-Aqsa Brigades, Abu Mazen's government has been paying militant leaders to honour the ceasefire. A Palestinian minister admitted that payments had been made, but did not confirm rumours that one leader received as much as $10,000."
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/505.asp

This report, buried in the fifth paragraph of the Independent article, appeared nowhere else in major world media. PA payments to terrorist leaders violate both the text and the spirit of the road map's call for the dismantling of terror groups. Isn't that newsworthy?

* * *

2) ARAFAT'S INVOLVEMENT

A fundamental component of the road map is the replacement of Arafat as Palestinian leader. Arafat, however, continues to play a decisive role. The Jerusalem Times, a Palestinian weekly, reported (July 17) that Arafat and Abbas "settled their differences" with a deal that allowed Arafat to retain control over the two most essential portfolios: negotiations with Israel, and head of the PA security committee. (Go to http://www.jerusalem-times.net/ and search.)

Arafat is now directly undermining the peace process, to the point of supplying financial and political support to armed groups that reject the current cease-fire. In a front-page expose, the Boston Globe (July 23) quotes the Palestinian governor of Jenin, Haider Irsheid, who was recently kidnapped and beaten by Arafat's thugs:

"Arafat knows of and supports the continuing payments to the militant groups despite their rejection of the cease-fire. The governor said Fatah is making the payments in numerous places in the West Bank, even as internal Palestinian reforms and US pressure have begun to choke off previous sources of funding for the paramilitary groups.

"Abdel Fattah al Hamayel, who is a Fatah leader and a Palestinian Authority minister without portfolio, confirmed that Fatah is providing money to the Brigades."
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/507.asp

As well, Arafat continues to incite Palestinians to violence. Last week, the Jerusalem Post reported that Arafat called on Palestinian children to follow the "martyrdom" example of Fares Odeh, a 13-year-old boy from Gaza who has been immortalized posthumously by a photograph showing him throwing stones at an IDF tank.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1059057618

* * *

3) TERROR ATTACKS

While there has been a reduction in terror attacks against Israelis since the intra-Palestinian "truce," they are continuing at a rate that no other country would find acceptable. And yet, the media has virtually ignored this latest spate of attacks:

An Israeli cyclist was stabbed in Jerusalem on Wednesday (July 23); he was rushed to Hadassah Hospital with the knife still lodged in his back. On Sunday (July 20), a 64-year-old Jerusalem man was stabbed in the city's upscale Yemin Moshe neighborhood. Two suicide bombers, members of Islamic Jihad, were caught on Thursday (July 24) en route to perpetrate attacks. An Israeli soldier, Oleg Shaichat, remains missing, thought to have been kidnapped in the manner that an Israeli taxi driver was kidnapped last week. (Meanwhile, Hizbullah shelling continues on northern Israel, injuring two civilians, one seriously.) See: http://honestreporting.com/a/r/508.asp

A Palestinian Authority report, issued prior to the recent stabbings, documents 26 separate terror incidents since Palestinian factions announced their cease-fire. In the month of June, terror accounted for 31 Israeli deaths and 179 wounded. The report cites four suicide bombings, mortar fire, anti-tank rocket fire, shots fired at IDF patrols, and last week's stabbing in Tel Aviv which killed a 24-year-old Israeli -- an attack claimed by Arafat's Martyrs' Brigades.
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/509.asp

* * *

4) PRISONER RELEASE

Many Western media are continuing to report (wrongly) that prisoner releases are a condition of the road map. As was frequently the case during the "Oslo years," lazy (or biased) journalists have not bothered to read the text of Israeli-Palestinian agreements about which they report. Instead they have simply swallowed lines from Palestinian spokespersons as if they were fact. Reporters have thus left readers with the impression that Israel has not fulfilled agreements and is responsible for delaying peace initiatives.

Following recent criticism, however, some media have started to correctly report that Palestinian demands for a large-scale prisoner release is not a condition of the road map. Others (notably the Washington Post, Reuters and AFP) have not.

THE WASHINGTON POST continued to mislead readers (which, of course, include many politicians in Washington). In the report, "Mideast Parties Now Look to U.S. Sharon-Abbas Meeting Stalls Over 'Road Map'" (July 21), John Ward Anderson writes: "The peace plan, known as the road map, has stalled over several key issues -- notably... Palestinian demands for... the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. "
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20378-2003Jul20.html

REUTERS' July 21 report by Dan Williams implies that prisoner releases are a central to the road map: "Israel agreed to free hundreds more Palestinian prisoners Sunday, disappointing Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas's hopes for a full amnesty but keeping a U.S.-backed peace 'road map' in motion."
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20178-2003Jul20.html

AFP (Agence France Presse), the world's third biggest news agency, also implied (July 21) that prisoner releases are a condition of the road map: "...Abbas was referring to the US-backed international roadmap for peace which outlines steps both sides must take toward creating by 2005 a Palestinian state that lives peacefully alongside Israel. Abbas, who is also known as Abu Mazen, refused to budge on the release of prisoners."
http://www.timesofoman.com/newsdetails.asp?newsid=36754

ASSOCIATED PRESS, by contrast, is now reporting this point correctly (July 21): "The release of prisoners is not spelled out as an Israeli obligation in the so-called 'road map' peace plan, but Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan said the releases are 'at the top of our agenda'."
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21450-2003Jul21.html

Remarkably, Israel remains flexible and accommodating on this issue, voluntarily agreeing to release hundreds of Palestinians from Israeli detention as a goodwill gesture.
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/510.asp

* * *

SUMMARY

Now let's get this all straight:

Abbas is paying the terrorists not to attack; Arafat is paying them to attack. Either way, terrorists are making a lot of money.

The road map obligates the Palestinians to crack down on terrorists; instead, the Palestinians are demanding their release.

As the prime ministers travel to Washington, we wonder: Is something wrong here?