In Search of Noah’s Ark

MSNBC ^ | July 21st, 2003 | Eve Conant

[LOL Clinton Was Impeached]

He found the Titanic. Now Robert Ballard hunts the quarry of a lifetime

July 21 issue — Ten thousand years ago, the Black Sea was a freshwater lake in the middle of a vast, low-lying basin. Its fertile valleys and lush pastures would have given Neolithic hunter-gatherers a perfect opportunity to make the leap to a more settled, agricultural society. But then disaster struck.

ABOUT 7,500 YEARS ago the ice age ended, the world’s climate warmed and the seas rose. The Aegean Sea breached a narrow strip of land, where the Strait of Bosporus is today, like a dam bursting. Seawater poured into the basin with the force of 200 Niagara Falls’, raising the water level six inches each day and sending the human settlers scurrying to the hills. The story of the Great Flood was told and retold, eventually in Genesis: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life... the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.”

Did Noah’s Flood really happen this way and in this place? Some people think it did. In August, underwater explorer Robert Ballard intends to put this theory to the test. To do it, the 60-year-old Connecticut-based geologist—better known for his elaborately publicized ship-hunting escapades, including the discovery of the Titanic in 1985—is going to have to push the state of deep-sea technology. He’s designed a remotely piloted submersible, Hercules, which he claims can excavate for signs of human civilization at depths of 300 meters with a precision approaching what archeologists can muster with human hands.

[LOL Clinton Was Impeached]

Yeah...I checked them out. Thanks.

The one thing I remember from Catholic School (Only went there for 1st through 6th grade and then never really went back for church after that) is that we never used bibles. I always found that odd...

I guess that's the part you guys don't like? Catholics use their own form of biblical education?

[Dataman]

They still had to get on, and they only had seven days, so how did it happen?

Yours is a relatively naive question that has a simple answer. I believe it is antagonistic in nature. The calculations as to the number of animals, how large the ark would have to be and how long it took to load have all been made and remade. Only antagonists raise the numbers to make the feat seem impossible. The answers are available. You, however, need to do your own homework. Here's a clue: the ark was three times larger than it needed to be.

[BibChr]

Sigh. You do want me to be swarmed.

Okay, here's the deal. As the links would show you, the problem is that Roman Catholicism formally affirms that the Bible is God's Word, and then adds teachings and interpretations which in fact directly contradict its teaching. If you studied the Bible as what it claims to be, the Word of God, you would never end up with Roman Catholicism.

In part, it is a truth-in-advertising thing.

Dan

[Ahban]

Your own text says everything that "was upon the face of the ground" was destroyed. Does that include mosquitoes that breed in water? Flies that breed in floating corpses? Beetles burrowed in the treetops?

Are you saying that the writer meant to imply that each and every living thing, even the dolpins, penguins, ducks, storks, turtles, crocodiles, and otters were either on the ark or wiped out? Would a flood, even a global flood that displaced the seas onto the land, wipe out those critters?

I don't mind defending what the text says, but that is not what it says. The destruction was limited to those things which dwelled "upon the face of the ground", including birds that were non-aquatic (fowl of the heaven verses those of the waters).

[Live free or die]

I think they got the wrong idea using a submarine.

[LOL Clinton Was Impeached]

Yeah...That's it. Thanks.

That's pretty odd. How did something like that get up there? Of course we don't really know how the pyramids and Machu Pichu (sp?) were created either...

[Remole]

ok, 7 pairs of some animals and one pair of others. But my point is (see my earlier posts to BibChr): SO WHAT, in light of the larger issue of the theological message of the story?

Also, I did not claim that it was "borrowed" in a simplistic fashion. Source criticism of the Pentateuch has moved beyond the mere isolation of strata. What does seem likely is that the human authors of Genesis 6-9, under divine inspiration mind you, and aware of the traditions about a Great Flood that preceded them and that existed in other cultures, traditions that suggest a certain viewpoint regarding the relationship between humans and God, crafted their own Great Flood story, drawing on similar motifs but radically altering the message.

As for scholarship, a quick review of the books on my shelf demonstrate amazing unanimity on this point: see Blenkisopp (Pentateuch); see Whybray's article, "Genesis," in the Oxford Bible Commentary; see C. Westermann's Genesis 1-11; see the relevant sections of K. Sparks, The Pentateuch: An Annotated Bibliography.

[abishai]

Genesis 5:32 says Noah was 500 yrs when the Lord spoke to him about the ark. Genesis 7:6 says he was 600 when the earth was flooded. Thats around 100 years to build the ark and get the animals ready. The dimensions of the ark in Genesis 6:15 would add up to the space of 52 modern boxcars, enough space for every "kind" of animals on the planet.

[kidd]

It isn't necessary to read the Bible to be a Roman Catholic; and even if one does, one is only allowed to see what the Roman Catholic church decrees is there.

Ignorance is bliss.

You must lead a very blissful life.

[BibChr]

Kind of you to confirm the REST of my post; to wit:

Dozens and dozens and dozens of conversations confirm that statement, though apolgists will formally deny it.

The problems RC's have with what I have to say isn't what I don't know; it's what I do know.

Dan

[Jack of Diamonds]

...if dinosaurs were on the ark, weren't they (dinosaurs) around before the mammals, or at least the majority of them? So did Noah only have reptiles on board?

When the dinosaurs ruled the earth, the largest mammals where the size of rats. Dinosaurs where long gone millons of years before the first human walked the earth.

[Dataman]

What does seem likely is that the human authors of Genesis 6-9, under divine inspiration mind you, and aware of the traditions about a Great Flood that preceded them and that existed in other cultures, traditions that suggest a certain viewpoint regarding the relationship between humans and God, crafted their own Great Flood story, drawing on similar motifs but radically altering the message.

That seems unlikely. There is no evidence to support your claim, only speculaton. Do you think that maybe-- just maybe Genesis predates the other flood stories? Who sent the flood? The gods of Gilgamesh? It seems that those who find a relationship between Genesis and other ancient texts reject the idea of a worldwide flood. IOW presuppositions trump manuscript data. For a technical but fascinating examination of the evidence, see I Studied Inscriptions From Before The Flood, Ancient Near Eastern, Literary, and Linguistic Approaches to Genesis 1-11, Volume 4, 480pp. There are 25 scholars who contribute to this volume. Your position does not hold up.

[lupie]

Find a grave from someone in the first testement.

OK. That isn't too hard to do: From http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/machpelah.html

"The Cave of Machpelah is the world's most ancient Jewish site and the second holiest place for the Jewish people, after Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The cave and the adjoining field were purchased—at full market price—by Abraham some 3700 years ago. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rebecca, and Leah are all later buried in the same Cave of Machpelah. These are considered the patriarchs and matriarchs of the Jewish people. The only one who is missing is Rachel, who was buried near Bethlehem where she died in childbirth.

The double cave, a mystery of thousands of years, was uncovered several years ago beneath the massive building, revealing artifacts from the Early Israelite Period (some 30 centuries ago). The structure was built during the Second Temple Period (about two thousand years ago) by Herod, King of Judea, providing a place for gatherings and Jewish prayers at the graves of the Patriarchs.

Over 300,000 people visit Ma'arat HaMachpelah annually. The structure is divided into three rooms: Ohel Avraham, Ohel Yitzhak, and Ohel Ya'akov. Presently Jews have no access to Ohel Yitzhak, the largest room, with the exception of 10 days a year.

Rachel's tomb is now generally assumed to be in a spot near Bethlehem, and is covered by a structure built by Sir Moses Montefiore in 1841. During the Jordanian occupation, the area around the tomb was a Muslim cemetery. After the Six-Day War, the structure around the tomb was renovated and it has become a place of mass pilgrimage for Jews. Jews visit it year-round, but specifically on Rosh Chodesh (the new moon and the first of the Hebrew month), the month of Elul and the anniversary of Rachel’s death on the 14th of Heshvan."

Joseph's tomb is in Shechem. He died in Egypt, but in Exodus it talks about how they brought his bones back, as he requested. Even the Muslims recognize these places because at every opportunity, they try to deface, destroy or build a mosque over these areas.

You asked for 1 grave, here are 7. Hopefully that is enough.

In Jesus alone,
Andra

[Remole]

I've requested the book via ILL and will review it. I trust you realize that academic discourse deals with varying degrees of probability and that it is not wise to blithely toss about the accusation of "speculation." Even the most tightly demonstrated and argued position, with evidence that will choke a cow, can be dismissed as "speculation" by those whose minds are closed.

[TomB]

This is what you said:

We assumed bugs and the really little stuff could live on floating debris.

The vast majority of "bugs" were "upon the face of the ground".

The dimensions of the ark in Genesis 6:15 would add up to the space of 52 modern boxcars, enough space for every "kind" of animals on the planet.

How can you possibly get to the conclusion that "52 boxcars" are enough to hold every "kind" of animal? Even excluding acquatic animals.

Where did they put all the food? How did they manage to clean out the TONS of excrement those animals would produce every day?

[Dataman]

I've requested the book via ILL and will review it. I trust you realize that academic discourse deals with varying degrees of probability and that it is not wise to blithely toss about the accusation of "speculation." Even the most tightly demonstrated and argued position, with evidence that will choke a cow, can be dismissed as "speculation" by those whose minds are closed.

You won't be disapponted in the wealth of information you find in the book. Regarding the speculation, since at least the days of Tubingen, the Bible has been assumed wrong until proven right. Almost all other ancient lit is assumed to be more reliable inspite of the trainload of supporting scriptural mss. It has survived baseless criticism for thousands of years and has been found to be in error only by fiat. Higher criticism has been hammered --by legit scholarship-- for the past 150 years and is now flatter than a Texas road armadillo.

[Remole]

I can assure you that I am not in the camp of those who assume the Bible is wrong until proven right. My perspective on the Genesis Flood account is NOT to figure out if the Bible is "true" from an historical or geological analysis. Rather, my interest is in the truth of the theological message; and that message can be clearly seen--perhaps MORE clearly seen--when one reads it in light of the Ancient Near East texts that resemble it (notice that I did not say "parallels").

[Ahban]

Look, I really don't want to argue interpretation with you. The Hebrew word for the things that crawl on the face of the ground refers to specific classes of animals, like skinks and mice.

As for that second quote, I don't know where you got it. Its not mine. Still, I'd say that would be adequate space for the 11,000 species, or more likely, 5-6000, that my student and I researched. The average size of those critters would be about the size of a chicken. Not including subspecies, there really are only a few hundred really large types of terristiral animals.

The food for the mammals and birds would be a problem, and also the excrement. Reptiles only need a meal every six months or so, when they are inactive. If there were 6,000 kinds, including 2,000 reptiles, that leaves 4,000 kinds that are "high maintenance". That is a lot, but many from that group have the active or latent ability to hibernate or estivate.

I am not sure how many are left, but even if they took 7 of each of the 4,000 high maintenance types that is 28,000 chicken sized (on average) animals.

We have lots of chicken houses around here that hold 28,000 chickens, worked by ONE COUPLE, and they are nowhere near the size of 52 box cars.

Look, maybe the flood account is fiction, maybe its history- but you can't prove it is fiction by doing the math on the ark. I know because I have done it more than once in my life.