[Euro-American Scum]

You makes some excellent points in your response. Let me address them in order.

Sir, there appear to be a disproportionate number of she-puppies in your congregation. Yes, even though it's "the most evangelical, conservative, fundamentalist Christian church there is." I wonder why. Is it possible that there is something about the teaching that attracts people who are troubled, or who have a hard heart?

You make a very insightful observation here. The men who pastor our congregations are hard men who have led hard lives. We have among our pastors former Hells Angels, hard-core drug users, armed robbers, wife beaters, thieves and even some murderers.

Now let me hasten to add, all are saved, and have been for years. They have credibility based on years of selfless service to God by teaching His word from the pulpit, something they are uniquely gifted for. Those who were convicted criminals served hard time, some for many years, and many came to Christ in some of the hardest prisons in the country. And don't think this invalidates them in some way. Ask Chuck Colson about the effectiveness of a prison conversion.

But, these men have a hard shell, and there's not an ounce of compromise in them. And that's a good thing. To paraphrase Barry Goldwater, I would say, "Extremism in the teaching of God's word is no vice. Compromise in the pursuit of self-esteem is no virtue."

But you're right. This type of hard-edged ministry resonates with people who are not unacquainted with violence and street people. Sad to say, there's plenty to go around. However, I would add that our church is national in its scope, indeed world-wide. And even the more sedate (for lack of a better term) congregations in more traditional settings report the phenomenon I described.

There are nearly 5000 members in our church, and while there are some real witches, there are no more of them than there are very ugly and troubled men.

We're at about 13,000 and growing. We figure to have more since we just opened a new massive sanctuary. At no time did I suggest all men were virtuous and saintly and all women were hissing, spitting harpies. This thread is about women so I confined my comments to that topic. Indeed, I would say 75% of the spousal abuse cases that I handled were men abusing women. The guy gets drunk, his wife says something, he belts her.

This was not tolerated under any circumstances, and no pastoral counselor would endorse it or rationalize it. But for those few men -- and they were very few, I'll admit -- who made a heartfelt attempt to reach out in the dark in faith and reform their violent tendencies, they were not strengthened by a wife who would never let them forget it, told everyone they knew long after the incident was passed, threw Scripture in their faces as a weapon to accuse and destroy, and actively sought the next marital candidate before they threw their husbands out of the house. And that did happen. And it happened very frequently.

Divorce occurs in our church, but not at the rate it does in the general population, and not with the rancor.

I don't know if we keep divorce statistics. Usually, the men who are divorced are accused by the ministry of failure to lead their family, blamed for the divorce, and while they are not cast out, they usually leave because the constant pounding they get from the ministry, their brothers and sisters in Christ and their ex-wives is too great to bear. It is heavy, and there is no let up. But the viciousness of the divorces I've been aware of are legendary even by secular standards.

You made some excellent points here, and you got me to thinking. I'm starting to believe that when Jesus comes for His church it may be as much because we've failed to be salt and light than it will be out of love and a fulfillment of prophecy.

We're suppoosed to be evangelizing the world, and we're too exhausted from tearing ourselves apart to do it.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

[Capriole]

Of course, you're right--there's no solution to any of earth's sorrows and frustrations except the return of the real King. But in the meantime, what you wrote about your church's circumstances and the people in it sheds a little light on why there are such tempestuous marriages among the Body, and why you got emotionally cooked in your years there. It seems logical that people with such a rough background might not choose or be accepted by sweet, meek virginal little suburban angel-girls. Any woman who would contemplate marrying some of the guys you describe as part of your congregation are probably pretty tough cookies before the marriage and might have been around the block a few times. When the marriage runs into bumps, they are not going to deal with the situation in a spirit of calm, forbearing, pacific enlightenment.

I think you have to admit that your church is a little unusual. It's my hope that the average Christian guy who goes to a large church with a submitted spirit and persistent prayer is going to find a worthy mate, sooner or later--if, that is, it's the Lord's will.

And really, guys, what're the alternatives?

1. You can be single, lonely, frustrated, and horny for the rest of your cold sterile life.

2. You can form temporary liaisons with women and bonk them, risking sorrow, disease, and pregnancy in the process.

3. You can find someone in the greater population outside of church and marry her, knowing that since she doesn't believe in a particular firm set of principles, the chances that she will stand fast beside you in time of trial are even more remote than if you found someone whose hope and belief are centered firmly on Christ.

None of these seem to me to be attractive alternatives to finding a worthy Christian spouse. But that's just me. I'm old-fashioned.