Posted on 07/15/2003 10:41:28 AM PDT by gcruse
I'm with David Horsley. If there is such a thing as a "gay agenda" I must be one of its supporters by default. I've never been "recruited" for this cause; never received any political material describing the agenda, the forces opposed to it, or how it will prevail in the law and the institutions of America; and I've never attended any meetings suggesting my heterosexual predilection is a target for gay subversion. But there are people out there with whom I disagree who tell me that gays of both genders are promoting this "agenda," and the demand that gays be given equal treatment under the law is apparently the first step on a path that will soon have me dating Bruce Willis.
I am not persuaded.
There's a lot of nonsense surrounding the phenomenon of homosexuality.
There's the idea that homosexuals "recruit" heterosexuals. This is absurd because you can't change someone else's sexual orientation. If you don't believe that, try changing your own. If you can't do it to yourself, what chance does anyone else have to do it to you? My sexual orientation is not up for grabs, and I defy anyone to sweet-talk me into sleeping with men.
There's the idea that gays corrupt the young. Some may, but as science repeatedly points out, most episodes of sexual abuse involving adults and children are perpetrated by heterosexuals. I suspect someday we will see a movement to outlaw heterosexuality because of all the perversions it spawns, but for now I would rather rest my weight on the idea that acts of sexual perversion are separate and distinct from sexual orientation. That way we can sweep up offenders of both persuasions.
And there's the idea that gays "choose" the "gay lifestyle" - whatever that is. As I've pointed out before on this page, if anyone can "choose" to be gay, so can you. And if you can choose to be gay, your right of choice should be protected as long as you meet the new criteria - consenting adults, privacy of the bedroom.
But the only element of "lifestyle" common to all gays is that they prefer sex with people of their own gender. Beyond that you can find gays who are committed and gays who sleep around, just like us. You can find gays who drink wine and gays who drink beer, just like us. You can find gays who are Republicans and gays who are Democrats, just like us.
The only "agenda" gays hold that I'm aware of is to correct mistreatment under the law, and since the gays doing this are American citizens who work, pay taxes and vote, there is no reason to deny them this much of what they want. Gays should be able to form lifelong committed relationships, participate as full partners in medical decisions of their mates, pass on property to survivors as easily as the rest of us can.
And, yes, they should be able to raise children as a family unit.
This is the idea that troubles some people to distraction - what about the children? Won't kids who grow up in a homosexual-parent family turn out gay? Well, do all children who grow up in heterosexual-parent families turn out straight? Of course not. I had three children by my first wife. Two are heterosexual, one is gay. So that argument doesn't hold water.
What is important to children in any family is the quality of the relationship between the parents and between parents and children. Two heterosexual parents can make the lives of their children a living hell. Two homosexual parents can make the lives of their children an example of trust, commitment, integrity, and love.
We all ought to seek and savor the second kind of relationship, not reject one of them out of hand because we don't like the pairing.
But giving gays some minimal protection under the law is an essential first step to understanding their relationships, because nothing distorts research like criminalizing the behavior to be studied.
Besides, when gays are denied fundamental protection under the law, we are stating to the whole world that justice in America depends on your choice of sleeping partners. This is an insupportable premise for public policy.
For those who are rabidly opposed to homosexuality, I say by all means stay heterosexual. Just don't expect to see your zeal elevated to legal prohibition. Gays can be good Americans, too, and discriminating against good Americans with the law has yet to prove itself a viable long-term strategy.
And there are many who stopped smoking 10 years ago and don't crave them every day. Guess that means they DID change their smoking orientation.
No, what he said, read it again, is that homosexuals attempt to recruit young, impressionable people before they are fully formed and that homosexuality can be cured. Note homosexuals obsession with joining youth groups and teaching homosexuality in school. Moreover, note the homosexual culture's obsession with youth.
Considering that only about 1-3% of the country is homosexual (if that), why does it need to be taught in all of the schools? No one without serious emotional issues/problems would decide to become a homosexual, so it is unlikely that he -or most fully formed adults - can be "talked out of" their normal, nature intended homosexuality.
Indeed, science has not been able to prove the homosexuals' claim that one is born homosexual. If fact, science seems to indicate the opposite. Thus, you never see any, not one, actual scientific study referenced in any homosexual agenda/promoter's arguments.
Finally, I could care less if someone decides to sodomize someone else, have multiple/multiple partners without protection and engage in an unhealthy lifestyle. It simply helps clean up the gene pool. However, stop asking the rest of us to a) pay for it; b) support it; c) teach it in our schools; d) change the U.S. Constitution (although the current sodomy 6 did that, hopefully their illegal action will not stand; and e) grant homesexuals preferences (affirmative action/ hate crime laws). Simply live your life and leave us alone.
(3) Teenagers are confused sexually. I beg to differ. I never once recall any of my friends trying to decide if they wanted to go to the dance with Jim or Betty. (Why it's just so darn confusing!) Come on, by the time a person reaches puberty, he or she knows whether he/she likes boys or girls.I think you made some good points until this third one, which I think you're painting in black & white instead of a shade of gray.
I'm willing to live and let live with homosexuals. They are unwilling to leave me alone. They want to change my country's constitution; teach homosexualims in schools; join christian youth groups; and get legal preferences (affirmative action, discrimination laws, hate crime laws) that make them a priority class of people in the law. They also want to force me to "accept" homosexuality, which actually means support it; plus use my tax dollars to pay medical bills for their deadly lifestyle. Who is unwilling to live and let live?
Do you consider alcoholism and drug addiction the result of choices? I wouldn't, and neither of those things make one happy.
"Gay people are recruited. I cannot for the life of me see how someone could talk me into completely switching my sexual attraction."
Perhaps no one attempted to recruit you while you were a teenaged bag of raging hormones.Teenagers are confused sexually. I beg to differ.
"Teenagers are confused sexually. I beg to differ."
Maybe you don't know many teens.
I'm not sure, I wouldn't judge anyone if they were. Asking someone if they are gay or not on this forum is a cheap shot, because it insinuates that they are and invites all sorts of games from the loving religious types that despise homosexuals.
Besides that, whether or not a particular poster is gay or not really has very little to do with their opinion on an issue. Just because you are or are not gay (or black/latino/female) does not mean you must think in a particular way.
Trace
So you do believe homosexuaity is a bad thing. Based on your previous posts, I didn't think you knew right from wrong.
You, on the other hand, are completely tolerant of those who believe that homosexuality is sin, right?
You bet your butt I fear God...I should. But I also try to win Gods heart. Thumbing my nose at him wont. People who do not know Christ have not a clue how this works and I can only hope you are fortunate enough to have this desire to please God.
Who said I am unable to live and let live... Love sinner, hate the sin. Teaching my kids that being gay is fine (which in our religion it is not) should be illegal and on par with standing in front of a public school and saying "Death to Israel"... Its indoctrination and those are the types I am, and always will be, against.
Well, my mind's made up. I ain't selling and I ain't buying.
I don't even want to listen! ;-)
No, what he said, read it again, is that homosexuals attempt to recruit young, impressionable people before they are fully formed and that homosexuality can be cured. Note homosexuals obsession with joining youth groups and teaching homosexuality in school.
Sounds like talking to me.
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