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Here is what the acolytes of solar power don't want you to know...
self | July 15, 2003 | Boot Hill

Posted on 07/15/2003 3:16:56 AM PDT by Boot Hill

Here is what the acolytes of solar power don't want you to know...

These are the essentials you need in order to appreciate the absurdity of using solar cell power systems as any kind of sensible alternative. After you read this, ask yourself again how much sense solar power really makes.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SUN'S ENERGY WHEN
WE USE SOLAR CELLS TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY:

    SOURCE   LOSS - %     POWER - W/m2
  1.     solar constant       --   1370W
2.   atmosphere       27   1000W
3.   clouds       21     790W
4.   sun angle1       49     403W
5.   night2       50     201W
6.   cell efficiency3       85       30W
7.   dust/reflection4       10       27W
8.   packaging5       20       22W
9.   DC to AC inverter      25       16W
10.   storage       30       11W
Source Notes:
1.   Calculated for both hour angle and a latitude angle of 37º.
2.   See link. Continental U.S. average sunshine is 4.8 kilowatt-hours/
      square meter/day, or 200 watts/square meter. That value is nearly
      identical with total losses shown for items 1-5 above.
3.   See table on linked page.
4.   Dust, bird droppings, scratches, etc. estimated to be about 4%.
      Reflections, per Fresnel's Law, would be another 6%.
5.   See link for data sheet on typical solar panel. Data shows an
      overall efficiency of 10.3%, at nominal conditions. This is
      nearly identical with total losses shown for items 6-8 above.

Net efficiency = 11.4 Watts/m2 or a mere 0.83% (!)

But read on, it gets worse.

Is there any use for solar power that makes sense?
Yes, solar power makes sense in those limited applications where the customer does not have convenient or economic access to the power grid, such as with remote country or mountain top homes. It is also useful for powering mobile or portable equipment such as utility, emergency, scientific devices, etc., where it is not otherwise feasible to hook to the power grid.

But other than those narrow exceptions, it makes no economic, engineering, ecological or practical sense to use solar power as a replacement for, or even as a compliment to, conventional power plants. Solar may have its' own specialty niche, but in no way does that rise to the level of an "alternative" to conventional power plants.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Technical; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: alternativepower; electricpower; energy; environmentalism; fresnellens; photovoltaiccells; photovoltaics; renewablepower; solar; solarcells; solarpower
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To: DB
"Cool (pun intended ;-) do they require ground water or does typical soil 15 feet down or so work well?"

I don't think you actually need ground water, although I think if you DO have ground-water, the heat exchange efficiency is a little better. Also, as I recall, you don't need to get that deep, I think 2-3 feet is sufficient. There are two styles---straight down (i.e. drill a well and drop a loop of pipe down and fill in), or dig a serpentine trench 2-3 feet deep and of a length to hold the suggested loop size. Obviously, the one you choose will depend on your sub-soil conditions.

I'm sure you have found out that there is LOTS of info available on the subject.

181 posted on 07/16/2003 7:22:19 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog
This site has lots of information including software design tools:

http://www.geokiss.com/
182 posted on 07/16/2003 7:46:58 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: Calamari
Thanks for the info on NiFe batteries.
183 posted on 07/16/2003 7:50:54 AM PDT by null and void (Who first said "Who crys for the krill?"...)
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To: Boot Hill
What are you trying to say? Are you saying you are tied to the public utility grid with an AEI GC-1000?

Yes

When your PV array is making more power than you can use, is your excess (and only your excess) put out onto the utility power grid for other to use?

Yes

When you use more power than the PV array can supply, does the utility makes up the difference (and only the difference)?

Yes

If your answer is no to any of these then you need to re-think your last reply.

Not this time. The 2 M2 was just a bonehead mistake, something I surmise you've never done.

184 posted on 07/16/2003 7:57:27 AM PDT by null and void (Who first said "Who crys for the krill?"...)
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To: Boot Hill
Are you sure you're not confusing switching between PV array power and utility grid power and the synchronous transfer of power between PV array and utility grid?

Yes

185 posted on 07/16/2003 7:58:44 AM PDT by null and void (Who first said "Who crys for the krill?"...)
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To: Jeff Gordon
I know a start up company that will be producing thin film, flexible solar cells that cost less than 2% of the current panels.

Anywhere near Silicon Valley???

Are they HIRING???

186 posted on 07/16/2003 8:00:14 AM PDT by null and void (Who first said "Who crys for the krill?"...)
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To: Calamari
A better large-scale "battery" is to pump water up into a reservoir when excess power generation is available and then have the water flow back down and generate power when demand exceeds the available power. This is done in California I believe.
187 posted on 07/16/2003 8:01:07 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: null and void
Read #173.
188 posted on 07/16/2003 8:03:22 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: null and void
Anywhere near Silicon Valley???

Yes. Are they HIRING?

Yes. Do you have PhD in Chemistry?

189 posted on 07/16/2003 8:29:13 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: Jeff Gordon
No Ph.D., 30 years industry experience, ~ 6 in photodiodes...
190 posted on 07/16/2003 8:36:12 AM PDT by null and void (Who first said "Who crys for the krill?"...)
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To: null and void
I will get in contact with my friend who is interviewing with them. If there is anything I can tell you, I will Freep mail you.
191 posted on 07/16/2003 8:41:09 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: Jeff Gordon
Thanks!
192 posted on 07/16/2003 9:08:36 AM PDT by null and void
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To: autoresponder; Boot Hill; farmfriend; biblewonk; newgeezer; Carry_Okie; Dog Gone; dalereed; ...
great post!"

Why thank you, autoresponder, but Boot Hill deserves all the credit! He's done a fine job of hosting this thread. I just wish I had more time to participate by kabitzing from the sidelines.

This whole subject reminds me of that funny ol liberal tune that Frank Sinatra made famous about the fact that an ant can't move a rubbertree plant. It also talks about a ram can't butt down a dam. It includes a phrase that says "he keeps buttin that dam!"

Like all dreamy liberals, (including the author of the song - I think it was Sammy somebody) it ends up with the phrase (believing in the impossible as usual) "Oops, there goes another billion kilowatt dam!" (incredible, as usual)

Anyway, what got me started on all this was farmfriend pingin me to a thread where biblewonk jumped in with some farfetched claims about tilting at windmills, like Don Quiote, that was clear off the subject and I objected to the whole "I wanna believe the damnest stuff" non-science non-sense that keeps preaching to the "true believers" that flat goes completely against the laws of physics, economics and even nature!!!

It's hard to believe this crappola is creeping into FR like the incursion of GANG-GREEN into our society in general, but it is, sadly. It's all based on liberalism's other concept of "plausible lies" which goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden, so I understand it's part of human nature to wanna believe, wanna be and wanna live in delusion. Oh well... enjoy the argument, for the sake of argument. (grin) (groan) (grimace)

193 posted on 07/16/2003 9:22:09 AM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: BOBTHENAILER
I wanted to ping you to the above, too!
194 posted on 07/16/2003 9:24:26 AM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: eldoradude
Oh! And I forgot you, eldoradude!
195 posted on 07/16/2003 9:26:40 AM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: snopercod
And how could I have forgotten snopercod? You need to review the above thread of replies and add your superior wisdom to the discussion, ol friend.
196 posted on 07/16/2003 9:32:00 AM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: Growler
Easy on New Mexico, it is a beautiful state!

Try central Nevada and western Utah for a nowhere place!

197 posted on 07/16/2003 9:48:41 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Recall Gray Davis and then start on the other Democrats)
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To: SierraWasp; Boot Hill
Anyway, what got me started on all this was farmfriend pingin me to a thread where biblewonk jumped in with some farfetched claims about tilting at windmills, like Don Quiote, that was clear off the subject and I objected to the whole "I wanna believe the damnest stuff" non-science non-sense that keeps preaching to the "true believers" that flat goes completely against the laws of physics, economics and even nature!!!

ROFL!!

Boot Hill -- Excellent reading!

198 posted on 07/16/2003 9:54:34 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Recall Gray Davis and then start on the other Democrats)
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To: SierraWasp
Thanks a million for this PING. I'm adding this to my favorites because I know the RAT candidate for 04 will be a STRONG proponent of renewables and we can use this to shove it down their throats.
199 posted on 07/16/2003 10:12:15 AM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (Rats are showing all the symptoms of severe radiation poisoning)
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To: autoresponder; newgeezer
Wind powered generators to power the USA would require a full 25% of the total acreage of America.

Also constant and high winds

This is nonsense. Do the math.

200 posted on 07/16/2003 10:12:58 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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