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To: gypsigirl; BibChr

Well, Jerome may or may not have been a better Hebrew scholar than Dan (in fact, Jerome was simply one of the relatively-few Major Fathers at the time who knew much Hebrew at all, which does not prove he was a "Hebrew linguistic savant"...

...Except that you're not even quoting Jerome, are you now, lass; you're quoting that deplorable cheesecloth, the "Douay-Rheims Bible".

From a Roman Catholic (and therefore right and good, natch) Apologetics website:

The Latin word for “He” is ipse (not ipsa, "she") and is translated as such in the Latin translation of the Bible by Jerome (405 A.D.), as well as every ancient translation of Scripture we have.

Ahh, the ever-bumbling Douay-Rheims, quite possibly the single most incompetent "translation" of the Bible ever penned by the hand of man -- it's not faithful to the Hebrew, it's not faithful to the Greek, it's not even bloody well faithful to JEROME, fer cryin' out loud.


By the way, Dan, when you say "The masculine pronoun is added, though not needed" -- not to nitpick, but actually the addition of the Masculine Pronoun here (in addition to the singular voice of the verb and suffix) may well be God's predestinarian way of providentially countermanding the anti-messianic Jewish reading. Notice how the Jewish Publication Society re-words the Verse:

Thus turning this from a Messianic prophecy, into a pro-Judaism prophecy. But in addition to the singular voices of the verb and suffix which you point out, I would argue that with the Masculine Pronoun "HE" included, God is making it all the more emphatically a prophecy of Jesus in particular and all the more adamant that our otherwise-admirable Jewish friends are not Biblically permitted to re-word the verse as they have.

My knowledge of Hebrew being somewhere between "microscopic" and "infinitesimal", It'll probably be thirty more years before I have any opportunity to teach you anything on the matter -- so I thought I'd throw that little morsel-for-thought at you when I had the chance. ;-)

Best, OP

59 posted on 07/20/2003 3:24:01 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; we have only done Our Duty.)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; gypsigirl
Thanks for the information; good, as usual!

I never doubt the hand of God's infinite wisdom in the wording of God-breathed Scripture, and it is remarkable how some texts seem to anticipate errors not invented for centuries, or even millennia, after their publication.

What I was saying is this: Hebrew verbs, unlike English but like every other language I know anything about, have built-in number-reference, and even gender-reference. By that I mean this: in English, "strike" says very little until I add pronoun and helping-verbs, such as "he will, she will, they used to, it may," etc. Not so in Hebrew (or Greek, or Latin, or Spanish, etc.). The verb itself MEANS "he-will-strike." No need to add a separate pronoun. If a separate pronoun IS added, the result is emphatic in some way.

In this text, a separate pronoun IS added. "He [pronoun] he-will-strike-you [verb]."

And ma'am, I don't dispute that Jerome knew things I don't. But I would suggest that an additional seventeen HUNDRED years of Hebrew studies has added some to the corpus of Hebrew knowledge.

And in this case, all the ballast from the "bull" (ironic name) is just that. NONE of it arises either from that text, nor from any other. It is no more legitimate to join Mary to the singular masculine verb than it is to join ay other of Jesus' ancestors according to the flesh: David, Solomon, Rahab, Bathsheba....

It's just another case where a Christian rejoices to be bound in conscience to God's Word alone, while RC's feel themselves shackled to the accumulated errors of the centuries.

Dan
60 posted on 07/20/2003 7:47:43 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I *was* quoting the Vulgate, it says "ipsa",feminine, "she". The D-R translates it just as it is written in every copy of the Vulgate I have seen. Isn't it true that the original Vulgate is no longer available and we have to rely on copies? If not, where can we read the original? Also for a Christian (which I am assuming you are) to call any version of Holy Writ "deplorable cheesecloth" is a bit profane, dontcha think?


Yours in Christ,
Rita
65 posted on 07/31/2003 6:36:42 AM PDT by gypsigirl
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